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2 MagicJacks on the same network don't work

 
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daboostr
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: 2 MagicJacks on the same network don't work

I received two magicjacks in the mail today. I have a Linksys BEFSR41 v4.3 firmware 2.00.02 connected to a cable modem. On the LAN side, I have 2 Microsoft SBS 2003 servers and 2 Windows XP SP2 PCs.

I installed the 1st MagicJack and it worked right away. I made the first call and I could hear other people have a phone converstation while I was in the middle of one. I went to the website and ran the suggested upgrades and it seemed to fix it.

I proceeded to install the 2nd MagicJack on the second PC (within the same network) and after the registration, it showed an [Error 3] and asked me to check our internet connections. I tried running the fixes from the website and it still didn't work. I contacted Chat Support and they offered the same fixes available on the website. After seeing they had limited experience I realized I was on my own.

Here is the bottom line - MagicJack wasn't designed to operate alongside other MagicJacks if they are on the same LAN. I came to this conclusion by opening port 5060 to the PC that had error 3 and it would make the MagicJack connect, but it would knock off the other one. They were competing for the same port. If there is a way to access the port info on each magicjack and have the option to change the listening port or SIP port, you could probably make them work.

I'm not complaining about the device or its features. I'm simply sharing a problem that doesn't have any published solution. I bought the MagicJacks to replace our Vonage service (2 lines). The product is designed to for home use (1 magicJack per network). If you're trying to run a business and need 2 lines, don't waste your time. I hope this post ends up in the tech supports hands. It would have been easier and saved me 3 hours if Tech Support knew 'You can't run more than one magicjack on the same LAN or network'.

I'm a network engineer and have over 15 years experience with TCP and routing. If anyone has a solution, please share otherwise I will be returning my MagicJacks.
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maine-iac
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 347
Location: GA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject:

I currently have a magicjack on one PC and an ATA for a SIP service. They both use port 5060. My router is set to forward 5060 to the ATA and magicJack still works. I would try setting up the second magicjack by itself without the first one connected and see if it will work.
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daboostr
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject:

I can run a MagicJack and Vonage side by side and it equates to your configuration.

The problem arises when you have 2 MagicJacks running on the same network (Seperate PCs.)
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Stewart
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 2 MagicJacks on the same network don't work

daboostr wrote:
MagicJack wasn't designed to operate alongside other MagicJacks if they are on the same LAN.
That is not true. No special design is needed, because a properly working NAT router will sort out any port conflict. Consider two PCs running web browsers behind the same NAT. When one opens a web page, the OS chooses an available source port. (For normal HTTP, the destination port will be 80, of course.) It is possible, by chance, that the OS running on the second PC will choose the same port number. Indeed, if the machines are running the same software and were just booted, it's likely that the port numbers will be the same. Now, suppose that users on the two PCs open pages on the same web host at about the same time. Is there a conflict? No, because once the router has set up a NAT association for the first access, the chosen 'outside' source port for that access will be busy, and the second access will select a different outside source port. The situation is no different in the SIP case.

In fact, I have two MJ accounts running behind the same NAT, and a third one that I sometimes use for testing. There is no port forwarding on the router for any MJ, and there are no conflicts. Many other users report the same experience.

I don't know why it didn't work in your case; perhaps a router anomaly, or some unrelated failure caused the error 3. You might try removing the port forward, shutting down both MJs, rebooting the router, then restarting the MJ apps. If the failure recurs, one possible workaround is using so-called UPnP forwarding. E.g. forward UDP external port 5060 to internal port 5060 on PC A; external port 5061 to internal port 5060 on PC B. Test it by starting PC B first. If it's working as expected, a Wireshark capture should show 'rport=5061' in the Via header in the response to REGISTER. If your router won't cooperate, try this alternate fix: remove the forwarding, start one MJ. On the other PC, start a dummy app (e.g. another softphone) to occupy port 5060, then start MJ. If that won't work, either, do you have another model router to try? Honest, this does work properly on most installations.

If you really want to see what's happening, you need to monitor the WAN side of the router. This is a little tricky on a cable modem that offers only one public IP, because it will choke on the MAC address of the monitoring PC. Some ways around that problem:
1. Use a managed switch with port monitor function.
2. Use a dumb hub, with a special cable that has only the receive pair connected.
3. Put the whole setup behind another router (MJ should work fine behind double NAT).
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AlaninKY
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 270
Location: Louisville, KY USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject:

At home I run my home desktop magicJack and sometimes I run my laptop magicJack at the same time. There is no conflict as I simply run each magicJack on different channels. I have a router and access point and they are set on different channels and the magicJacks run on different channels without ever having a conflict in 11 plus months on this setup. Wink
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daboostr
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject:

The router's NAT is operating normally. I have a MS Exchange server, HTTP, HTTPS, POP, SMTP and IMAP all running throught this firewall and have no issues. I use Vonage and it doesn't require and manipulation of the firewall ports to operate, because of NAT. To truly apply scientific testing, I would have to try 2 new MagicJacks, then a different router, then different network cables, then different cable modems. I'm glad to hear you have more than one working behind the same router. I agree that both MagicJacks are fighting for the same port. There aren't features on the MagicJack which allow me to modify the ports to ensure there are no conflicts. I don't run windows firewall and the Linksys is a simple router, so its easy to configure.

What I didn't try; I will take your advice and try to the 5060 and 5061 ext. port configuration and I will see if this works. Hang on.
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daboostr
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject:

AlaninKY wrote:
At home I run my home desktop magicJack and sometimes I run my laptop magicJack at the same time. There is no conflict as I simply run each magicJack on different channels. I have a router and access point and they are set on different channels and the magicJacks run on different channels without ever having a conflict in 11 plus months on this setup. Wink


That is because of the channel differnces. Most WiFi routers have a default setting to prevent traffic from the wireless to blend with the physical connections and other wireless connections.

You're right... you got it working and I didn't Very Happy
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daboostr
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject:

I've Got PCs configured as follows:
PCB - Ext Port 5061 to Int Port 5060 - It works
PCA - Ext Port 5060 to Int Port 5060 - Error 3 - Check your internet connection

If I tweak the firewall to allow 5061 to 5060 on PCB - It says ready for call, but when you dial it says 'creating outgoing call' and then goes back to 'ready for call'.

If I add one of the PC's to the DMZ it works fine, but the other PC says error 3.

Still not able to make both work simultaneously
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Stewart
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject:

daboostr wrote:
I've Got PCs configured as follows:
PCB - Ext Port 5061 to Int Port 5060 - It works
Yes, but check that SIP responses have rport=5061 in the Via: header. For this hack to work, I was hoping that the port forward would behave like 'ip nat inside source ...' on a Cisco and rewrite the source port on the outbound REGISTER. Unfortunately, many consumer routers are not that smart.
daboostr wrote:
If I tweak the firewall to allow 5061 to 5060 on PCB - It says ready for call, but when you dial it says 'creating outgoing call' and then goes back to 'ready for call'.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Allowing 5061 to 5060 on B sounds like exactly what you set up on the first step.
daboostr wrote:
Still not able to make both work simultaneously
Well, then try pre-occupying UDP 5060 on one of the PCs, before starting MJ. MJ will silently use another port, which you can verify with netstat or by looking at the source ports with Wireshark. With this workaround, you should not need (and do not want) any port forwards to MJ.
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daboostr
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject:

daboostr wrote:
If I tweak the firewall to allow 5061 to 5060 on PCB - It says ready for call, but when you dial it says 'creating outgoing call' and then goes back to 'ready for call'.

I meant 5060 to 5060 on PCB.

I just returned them. If I was using them for home, I would have kept it. I like the product and price. No complaints regarding workmanship, packaging or tech support.

Put it this way... I charge $125 per hour... I've spent 7 hours on this today ;-(. I've used sniffers and confirmed that its an issue with both devices fighting for External Port 5060. I don't have an extra router handy and I don't feel like buying one to test this theory. I'm pissed because I'm sure the MagicJacks will work with a little tweaking. Has anybody tried that hack to change the SIP info? That might have given me options to fix it.
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Stewart
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:52 pm    Post subject:

It sounds like you were already pissed when you made the first post. There are many ways you could have made this work:

1. Pre-occupying the port on one PC, as I previously suggested.
2. The Caller ID spoofing apps posted in this forum are proxies which would source from a different port.
3. If you have a PC with two NICs (or a USB or PCMCIA NIC that you can plug in), you can set up ICS on one PC and plug the other into it.
4. Even with the external port bug, it's likely that if we forced the PCs to register with different proxies (with a hosts file entry) the router would do the right thing.
5. If you have an unlocked ATA, that could be configured with a different source port and/or proxy IP.

The SIP info passed from the provisioning server does not presently set the local SIP port; I don't even know if that option exists. However, I can assure you that there are many ways to skin this cat.
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daboostr
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject:

I agree there are many ways to 'make it work'. The product is great and I have nothing negative to say about my experience with it. I purchased it for a business. As a business owner, i don't have time to spare looking for a work around. If I needed a phone at home, I would definetly recommend it. Kudos to the inventor and everybody supporting it. I believe you have a good product and great marketing. Thank you for the free trial.
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paulc21269
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:59 pm    Post subject:

I have at one time run 4 mj on 4 different computers on same network. comcast highspeed with WRT54GL linksys. I didnt change the router or open any ports . worked ok. We used them to call American Idol. (Sorry I have no life).

"15 years experience with TCP and routing" What were you working on in 1993 with tcp ??
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daboostr
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject:

paulc21269 wrote:
"15 years experience with TCP and routing" What were you working on in 1993 with tcp ??


Back then it was Banyan Vines and BNC (cable networks), token ring and apple talk.
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movinisimprovin
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: What internet connection are you using?

dabooster,
I am having the exact same problem. I was just curious as to what you have for internet service, cable or dsl?
We have Qwest dsl which crawls at times, 1338 Kbps download and 542 Kbps upload. I too think it is a router
issue, but I wondered if switching to cable would help.
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testing123
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 2 MagicJacks on the same network don't work

Folks, what Stewart writes makes a lot of sense. I have used MANY MJ's (including 4 at a time on various ISPs thru numerous providers: Cable, DSL, Fiber Optic, T1 with various Firewalls: Open Source ones, WRT54G's, Cable/Routers, SMC, etc.).

In 99% of the cases, you can use multiple MJ's behind the same router WITHOUT any port forwarding etc and they will work.

In fact, if you DO setup port forwarding for 5060 etc you then may actually limit yourself to just being able to use 1.

It really helps to have a firewall that can do some nice logging OR use Wireshark (free) to actually see what is happening with your packets.

(PS: I have used multiple MJ's on very strict firewalls that normally require explicit definition of every Inbound and Outbound rule -- and they have worked without ANY Port fowarding etc)

Stewart wrote:
daboostr wrote:
MagicJack wasn't designed to operate alongside other MagicJacks if they are on the same LAN.
That is not true. No special design is needed, because a properly working NAT router will sort out any port conflict. Consider two PCs running web browsers behind the same NAT. When one opens a web page, the OS chooses an available source port. (For normal HTTP, the destination port will be 80, of course.) It is possible, by chance, that the OS running on the second PC will choose the same port number. Indeed, if the machines are running the same software and were just booted, it's likely that the port numbers will be the same. Now, suppose that users on the two PCs open pages on the same web host at about the same time. Is there a conflict? No, because once the router has set up a NAT association for the first access, the chosen 'outside' source port for that access will be busy, and the second access will select a different outside source port. The situation is no different in the SIP case.

In fact, I have two MJ accounts running behind the same NAT, and a third one that I sometimes use for testing. There is no port forwarding on the router for any MJ, and there are no conflicts. Many other users report the same experience.

I don't know why it didn't work in your case; perhaps a router anomaly, or some unrelated failure caused the error 3. You might try removing the port forward, shutting down both MJs, rebooting the router, then restarting the MJ apps. If the failure recurs, one possible workaround is using so-called UPnP forwarding. E.g. forward UDP external port 5060 to internal port 5060 on PC A; external port 5061 to internal port 5060 on PC B. Test it by starting PC B first. If it's working as expected, a Wireshark capture should show 'rport=5061' in the Via header in the response to REGISTER. If your router won't cooperate, try this alternate fix: remove the forwarding, start one MJ. On the other PC, start a dummy app (e.g. another softphone) to occupy port 5060, then start MJ. If that won't work, either, do you have another model router to try? Honest, this does work properly on most installations.

If you really want to see what's happening, you need to monitor the WAN side of the router. This is a little tricky on a cable modem that offers only one public IP, because it will choke on the MAC address of the monitoring PC. Some ways around that problem:
1. Use a managed switch with port monitor function.
2. Use a dumb hub, with a special cable that has only the receive pair connected.
3. Put the whole setup behind another router (MJ should work fine behind double NAT).
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rapidnet_rick
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject:

daboostr wrote:
paulc21269 wrote:
"15 years experience with TCP and routing" What were you working on in 1993 with tcp ??


Back then it was Banyan Vines and BNC (cable networks), token ring and apple talk.


Not entirely... there was TCP/IP.... I was running stacks on Amiga, Sun Sparc 4/370, and about the same time on the PCs through add-on software....I think I had "Internet in a Box" for PCs...or NetManage Internet Chameleon....

I can't say 100% if it was 93, but if not right around there.... I registered my first domain name back in 1995.....those were the days...at least Internet Domain Names were actually free!


Oh, and I think the physical layer was coax/BNC RG58 with the terminators....10 meg of course..
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maine-iac
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 347
Location: GA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Actually, by 1993 TCP/IP had been around for some time. It had its beginnings in the 60s. See this.
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hvlqodvhinIyc
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject:

daboostr wrote:
daboostr wrote:
If anyone has a solution, please share otherwise I will be returning my MagicJacks.

I just returned them.

Put it this way... I charge $125 per hour...


Dude, your first post was Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:36 pm. You posted you returned MJ on Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:12 pm. Seeking help or advice in a public forum and waiting less than three hours for either isn't a very cost effective use of anyone's time. You merely wanted to gripe. In the future, please don't waste forum members' time this way. Thanks.
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