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30 minuite cutoff - reply from Dan
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject:

Good afternoon, emiliomcol.

emiliomcol wrote:
Hello yesterday nigth i spoke with one of the supervisors of tech chat of magicjack and they told me that the 30 minutes limist maybe last over the holydays, i was having 30 minutes drops of yesterday but in my calls today i have no limits jejej... Laughing


Well, all I can say to that is, "Lucky You!" Pun intended.

Seriously, I did the technical support chat thing the other night also. They didn't seem to have a clue about this call termination business. They did keep telling me not to worry and that it will be fixed. I guess my worrying really shows.

It pretty much is what it is. We'll just have to wait, see how it plays out and adjust accordingly. The nice thing is that we have plenty of warning so those of us wishing to assemble our exit strategy can do so.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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AlaninKY
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 270
Location: Louisville, KY USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject:

I love my 4 Jacks. They are a bundle of joy. I have more problems with my cell phone losing a signal than I do with my Jacks.

Also, I don't like my electricity and Internet to go out during a storm, but that's life.

magicJack is Not perfect, but it's still a great service for me.
Razz
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emiliomcol
MagicJack Expert


Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject:

lcompton wrote:
Good afternoon, emiliomcol.

emiliomcol wrote:
Hello yesterday nigth i spoke with one of the supervisors of tech chat of magicjack and they told me that the 30 minutes limist maybe last over the holydays, i was having 30 minutes drops of yesterday but in my calls today i have no limits jejej... Laughing


Well, all I can say to that is, "Lucky You!" Pun intended.

Seriously, I did the technical support chat thing the other night also. They didn't seem to have a clue about this call termination business. They did keep telling me not to worry and that it will be fixed. I guess my worrying really shows.

It pretty much is what it is. We'll just have to wait, see how it plays out and adjust accordingly. The nice thing is that we have plenty of warning so those of us wishing to assemble our exit strategy can do so.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile


They told the same not to worried that should be fixed in a few days, rigth now im making a few calls and the limits are in 60 minutes and im using it dongleless Laughing
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strndedinalska
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 230
Location: Alaska

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject:

I can live with the 60 minute cut off. It's not so long as it sends me to the ear surgeon the next morning, but it's also long enough to call home for the holidays, birthdays, etc.

I also have to hand it to Dan and his crew. I mentioned a couple of other issues and they jumped right on trying to find a solution even though I am willing to put up with a little inconvenience for the price I pay. Whether the mass is happy again or not, I have to admit that I am very happy with the consideration given to customers because most telephone companies I've dealt with in the past (I won't mention any names because I wouldn't want AT&T and Sprint to feel singled out) could care less what kind of an experience customers are having on the network.

Now, I'm willing to give credit where credit is due. They're honestly working on the issue and hopefully the whole thing will be resolved soon.
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

lcompton wrote:
But, what about the magicJacks themselves? Can they be re-initialized to pre-registration status and sold on eBay?


I can't think of any reason they can't be sold. Nothing ties them to you? You could change the email address (and password) in the my.magicjack.com portal. Let the purchaser change the phone number if they desire. At that point, for all intent and purpose it's owned by the new person?

If you haven't already taken advantage of the one-time free change, that would be a positive. Otherwise the $10 charge would have to be factored into their value (along with the amount of unused time).

Last week I would have offered to buy one. I'd like to have a number in another area code. Forward it to my number. But, after this week's events, I'm not as motivated.

lcompton wrote:
I'll refrain from lambasting magicJack for their marketing and business practices. I've been around long enough to have been burned by a number of Fortune 500 companies who don't give a hoot about me or the impact of their decisions on my life. So, as far as I'm concerned, anything magicJack does that's not nice just puts them in good company with the big boys.


What seems different to me is that a lot of Fortune 500 companies don't have a near-cult following of dedicated customers willing to serve as alternative help resources, writing how-to information, providing new-user guidance.

It's uninspiring to those people to see Dan act like he cares less about his business and his customers than that motivated following do. They take it more personally than if they purchased a Black&Decker coffee maker.

And, it has real consequences. I was planning to undertake a significant volunteer effort that would have been useful to MJ users. Now, I'm in a "want and see" mode. I have other things I can do that are worthy of my time. Any positive contribution I might make can't possibly compensate for Dan's incredible shoddy treatment of his customers.

I believe MJ's business practices have real, tangible effects like this. Would you feel inclined to take the time to document how to build a "thin client" right now? I suspect even if the customer curfew is lifted, you'll be a bit hesitant to invest much time in something like that, never knowing what Dan's next incredibly alienating move may be.

So, I see that as a fundamental and tangible difference. An example of how Dan is hurting himself by not only not leveraging his passionate customers who are willing to invest their time (perhaps to be beta testers before upgrades are rolled out). But, by actively showing contempt for them.

How hard would it have been to announce through a softphone ad, that there would be call limits over the holiday. It could be spun positively. And, it's not like everyone wasn't going to find out anyway. And, then the dumb "experiment" justification?

And, how hard would it have been to inform the help desk he *pays* for? Just so they wouldn't spread misinformation for the first 3-4 days?

I can understand business imperatives like offshoring support activities to reduce costs (even if it means negative effects on the customer). I agree "that's just business." But, the stuff we've seen for the past two months is carelessness. Callousness. They were avoidable with basic business practices, not big expenditures.

Mark


Last edited by az2008 on Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ret27m
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 170
Location: Pensacola Fl

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject:

strndedinalska
Where in Alaska are you? I have a friend in Soldotna useing a MJ with a El Paso Tx area code and he is not yet affected by the time limit. So far you and he are the only 2 I know of in Ak so its 50/50 there as far as limit/no limit. In the loewer 48 it's running 75% no time limit 25% time limit from the data I've collected.
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strndedinalska
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 230
Location: Alaska

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject:

ret27m wrote:
strndedinalska
Where in Alaska are you? I have a friend in Soldotna useing a MJ with a El Paso Tx area code and he is not yet affected by the time limit. So far you and he are the only 2 I know of in Ak so its 50/50 there as far as limit/no limit. In the loewer 48 it's running 75% no time limit 25% time limit from the data I've collected.


I'm in Anchorage using MJ with an Oklahoma City (405) number. My limit went from a half hour to a full hour yesterday after speaking with Dan, which I can live with. I also mentioned my call quality was about half and half and he fixed that too. I can live with an hour because my calls back home seldom run over 40-50 minutes a couple times a month, but 30 minutes was too short. That's the only way I noticed the change.

I'm reading that certain area codes are unaffected. There's a list somewhere, but if traffic and endless calls are as much of a problem as they mention, it'll be across the board before it's all said and done.
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ret27m
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 170
Location: Pensacola Fl

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:29 pm    Post subject:

So far all reports are that we will be back to no limit in a few days or by the end of the year, I have no proof positive of that but I feel it will, I'm one of the lucky one's with no time limit, my friend in Soldotna didnt get affected either, there seems to be no real rhyme or reason as to who got hit. I did some time at Ft greely some years back...BRRR it was mighty cold...lol, have a good one.
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

Good evening, Mark.

az2008 wrote:
I can't think of any reason they can't be sold. Nothing ties them to you? You could change the email address (and password) in the my.magicjack.com portal. Let the purchaser change the phone number if they desire. At that point, for all intent and purpose it's owned by the new person?

If you haven't already taken advantage of the one-time free change, that would be a positive. Otherwise the $10 charge would have to be factored into their value (along with the amount of unused time).

Last week I would have offered to buy one. I'd like to have a number in another area code. Forward it to my number. But, after this week's events, I'm not as motivated.


Selling a magicJack with the prior owner's telephone number still active is asking for trouble. This is not an option. The only way I would sell mine is if they could be re-initialized to a pre-registration state. A preliminary examination of this option doesn't look good. So, if I end up abandoning magicJack, the magicJacks themselves may have to be destroyed and discarded.

az2008 wrote:
What seems different to me is that a lot of Fortune 500 companies don't have a near-cult following of dedicated customers willing to serve as alternative help resources, writing how-to information, providing new-user guidance.


I don't know that this is true or not. My motivation for writing about my experiences with magicJack was largely because I had seen a lot of bologna about the product both on YouTube and in these forums. There is entirely too much emotion and insufficient retelling of factual experiences in the magicJack on-line forums in my opinion. The emotional stuff doesn't help anyone. Telling of actual experiences and backing it up with supportive evidence provides the information folks need to make informed decisions.

az2008 wrote:
It's uninspiring to those people to see Dan act like he cares less about his business and his customers than that motivated following do. They take it more personally than if they purchased a Black&Decker coffee maker.


I just don't see any reason to get worked up about what dear old Dan does with his company. That's your choice if you want to, but I honestly don't care. I want inexpensive telephone service that meets my needs. Dan is going to do what is best for magicJack not what is best for Lisa (or Mark or anyone else in these forums.) If I were in Dan's shoes, I'd be doing what's best for magicJack also. If magicJack makes a business strategy decision that no longer meets my needs, so be it. I'll move on to something else. All's right in the world. It's absolutely not worth getting worked up about as far as I'm concerned. Furthermore, it looks to me as though most people posting don't care about the call restrictions. So, Dan would seem to be in good shape if he decides to make these permanent.

az2008 wrote:
And, it has real consequences. I was planning to undertake a significant volunteer effort that would have been useful to MJ users. Now, I'm in a "want and see" mode. I have other things I can do that are worthy of my time. Any positive contribution I might make can't possibly compensate for Dan's incredible shoddy treatment of his customers.

I believe MJ's business practices have real, tangible effects like this. Would you feel inclined to take the time to document how to build a "thin client" right now? I suspect even if the customer curfew is lifted, you'll be a bit hesitant to invest much time in something like that, never knowing what Dan's next incredibly alienating move may be.


I lost my interest in producing a how-to video on Thin Clients last summer when folks started going into business for themselves and driving up the prices of the Thin Clients on eBay combined with the disastrous June update, which broke Thin Client compatibility for a period.

I purchased a fully-functioning Dell Latitude C800 laptop on Craig's List for USD100.00 last September. It's a dedicated magicJack server for my second telephone line. That laptop is from year 2000. It runs magicJack flawlessly.

az2008 wrote:
So, I see that as a fundamental and tangible difference. An example of how Dan is hurting himself by not only not leveraging his passionate customers who are willing to invest their time (perhaps to be beta testers before upgrades are rolled out). But, by actively showing contempt for them.


Again, I don't see it as personal. It's business as far as I'm concerned. I don't care what Dan does. It's logical to expect that he's doing what is best for magicJack. It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else thinks. The only decision we have to make is whether to stick with the product or move on.

I guess folks can get stuck into a rut of perpetual complaining about magicJack if they want to. I'm not interested. I need inexpensive telephone service that meets my needs. The rest I don't care about at all.

You've previously mentioned that you're reticent to recommend magicJack to friends/family because of all of the drama associated with the company's business practices. I've turned several people on to magicJack over the past several months. Some of them even read these forums (hi guys!), but choose not to participate. I'm not the least bit apologetic for turning anyone on to magicJack. I never guaranteed anything to anyone. I shared my experiences, which have been mostly positive.

Anyway, I've spent too much time on this post already. I need to stay focused on the call restriction issue and see where it leads.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

lcompton wrote:
Selling a magicJack with the prior owner's telephone number still active is asking for trouble. This is not an option. The only way I would sell mine is if they could be re-initialized to a pre-registration state.


Why not obtain from the purchaser:

1) The new email address (could be a throwaway if the purchaser is concerned with their privacy).
2) The desired area code and prefix.

Perform the changes in the my.magicjack.com account portal?

Edit: One thing I'm not sure of is if it removes your number from the list of available numbers when you change it.

lcompton wrote:
Again, I don't see it as personal. It's business as far as I'm concerned. I don't care what Dan does. It's logical to expect that he's doing what is


I don't know. It seems to be more than just business when people spend time volunteering to fill the gaps of the business. Most have expressed an interest that MJ succeed (instead of just "it's business, no problem, I'll move on."). The passions or interest in MJ's future seem to be stronger than, say customers of Black&Decker coffee makers.

Whether it's warranted is another matter. But, I wouldn't dismiss that it exists.

Mark
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:18 am    Post subject: magicJack Outbound Calls Terminating At 60 Minutes...

Good evening.

I just now completed an outbound call test to my T-Mobile wireless telephone. The call was forcibly terminated at 60 minutes. Sad

So, it would appear that 60 minutes is the magic number (pun not intended, but appropriate) in my case.

Do keep posting and letting others know of your experiences. This kind of information will help newcomers make informed choices.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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broker1k
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: call limited to 60 min

i am from area code 706
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

Mark:

az2008 wrote:
Why not obtain from the purchaser:

1) The new email address (could be a throwaway if the purchaser is concerned with their privacy).
2) The desired area code and prefix.

Perform the changes in the my.magicjack.com account portal?


I guess I'm the paranoid type.

az2008 wrote:
Edit: One thing I'm not sure of is if it removes your number from the list of available numbers when you change it.


Well, this and all of the other things that we don't know.

az2008 wrote:
I don't know. It seems to be more than just business when people spend time volunteering to fill the gaps of the business. Most have expressed an interest that MJ succeed (instead of just "it's business, no problem, I'll move on."). The passions or interest in MJ's future seem to be stronger than, say customers of Black&Decker coffee makers.


I'm not at all certain that the coffee maker analogy is valid. Apple computers seem to have a cult following (although, for the life of me, I can't imagine why. *braces for hate mail* LOL)

So, my new Christmas wish is that magicJack goes back to the way it used to be so I don't have to deal with this at all.

Nighty-night.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

lcompton wrote:
I'm not at all certain that the coffee maker analogy is valid. Apple computers seem to have a cult following


I think that's a good analogy. Many who have gone to Apple have a strong motivation for it to succeed. They want greater choice. They don't want to go back to Windows. They want a greater market share to entice more developers to develop for Mac OS (which in turn makes it easier to gain more market share).

They have a personal, vested interest. Just like the people here whom we've seen say they don't want to go back to incumbent telephone providers.

I just don't think it's accurate to depict either group as operating under the norms of "it's just business." Maybe they *should.* But, the passionate support (testimonials, professions of faith, bearing testimony) and "investment factor" (emotional and financial) which MJ generates among some of its customers seems similar to Apple's users.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with wanting MJ to succeed, and expressing disappointment when it exhibits practices that I could marginalize it among prospective users.

Mark
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neo1
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

lcompton wrote:
No worries. I think I found the toy that I want. This thing is awesome because it works with Skype over WiFi, which I already have at home.
Thank you.
Lisa Smile


Hi Lisa

I am a new MJ user. I have several concerns about MJ especially the spyware aspects and now the limitation on "unlimited" calling (which was the ad that I based the MJ purchase on). I feel I am the victim of unfair and misleading advertizing. You might want to go to Amazon and read some of the reviews on other Skype phones. The one you listed has poor reviews.

Wink
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

neo1 wrote:
I am a new MJ user. I have several concerns about MJ especially the spyware aspects and now the limitation on "unlimited" calling (which was the ad that I based the MJ purchase on).


1. Download and run "procmon" with a filter on "magicjackloader.exe" and watch what it does when you start MagicJack. Then change the filter to "magicjack.exe" (the process that constantly runs when you run the softphone) and start MagicJack.

It seems to be doing a lot more than just running the softphone. One person on this forum said he deems the softphone's processing to be a forum of malware, not necessisarily that the softphone is. Just that it shares characteristics in things it does (like registering itself with svchost?).

2. It sounds like the calling limit will be lifted. As a new user it should be troubling that these episodes occur without any warning, or notice when they do occur, and the help desk isn't informed for 3 days afterward.

It's an inexpensive service. Most will say "it's still a great deal." But, it's something to think about if you're considering saving money by turning off a landline. You never know what the next antic will be. That's the problem. "MJ is like a box of chocolates."

3. I haven't seen an advertisement which actually uses the word "unlimited." Check the Terms of Service. Magicjack reserves the right to terminate users for "excessive use" (not defined). And, they did this two months ago. (Without warning. No notice. Not even letting the help desk know until 2-3 days after.).

But, you're right. The ads do lead one to believe they mean "unlimited." But, nothing's really unlimited. Most people know that. It's just too bad that the limits aren't defined. Other VOIP providers publish the limits.

Mark
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

neo1 wrote:
I am a new MJ user. I have several concerns about MJ especially the spyware aspects and now the limitation on "unlimited" calling (which was the ad that I based the MJ purchase on). I feel I am the victim of unfair and misleading advertizing. You might want to go to Amazon and read some of the reviews on other Skype phones. The one you listed has poor reviews.


Good afternoon, neo1.

I was reading those reviews this morning during my Skype study. There are 37 reviews with an overall rating of three stars out of a possible five.

The recurring motif I observed in the reviews for that Skype telephone is that the reviews were very polarized (i.e. either one star or five stars). It seems that a few folks were frustrated with the Skype phone and chose to toss out a one star review rather than work through the challenges.

The only way to know for sure is to actually try it. If I purchase it on Amazon.com, I can try it risk free since there are no shipping charges or taxes applied. Further, I can return the product to Amazon.com on their dime. The only cost would be setting up a Skype account, which I am very seriously considering no matter what happens with magicJack and these call caps. One option would be to use a portion of my 2008 income tax refund to fund the capital investment required to start up a Skype account and purchased that NetGear Skype phone.

Something else I discovered about Skype this morning is that they at least define what they consider fair use of their outbound service. Skype's magic number is 10,000 minutes. That's about 20 times more than I need. The annual price for this service with unlimited domestic calling is USD35.40. Skype charges USD60.00/annum for a DID, but they discount that by 50% when purchased along with an outbound calling plan. So, we're talking USD65.40/annum for essentially the same calling plan offered by magicJack.

The down-side, of course, is that no analog telephones can be used, which is a bummer.

I'm curious to try it though. I'll probably sign up for a year to see if it's any good. I genuinely like the idea of having an alternative if magicJack pulls the rug out from under me. USD65.40/annum is an excellent value if the service actually functions.

With regard to magicJack being spyware, I'm not concerned. The terms of service and privacy policy pretty much spell out what magicJack does with customer data. The terms of service also state that magicJack can change the terms of service whenever they want. It helps to keep that in mind since I did actually sign up for that. But, I run magicJack on dedicated telephony servers, which don't actually contain any personal information other than what magicJack already has. So, the only potentially useful information magicJack has are my calling patterns and the content of my telephone calls (i.e. the conversations themselves.) But, Verizon had access to this same information when I was with them. I'm not seeing much difference.

magicJack is definitely free-wheeling. There's no doubt about that. But, they're small and still trying to get their technical infrastructure right. So, I don't mind occasional issues. But, I have to say, the call cap thing really spooked me. There is no way I can live with that.

Thank you for writing.

Lisa Smile
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject:

lcompton

I just discovered last night that USRobotics makes an (any) analog phone to USB converter for use with Skype.

With that gadget you should have the same advantages with the ability to use any phone as with MagicJack.

Regards,
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Good Information...

HolmanGT wrote:
I just discovered last night that USRobotics makes an (any) analog phone to USB converter for use with Skype.

With that gadget you should have the same advantages with the ability to use any phone as with MagicJack.


Good afternoon, George.

Good information. I just tracked down the USB adapter using the information you provided. It looks pretty decent.

USRobotics USB to Analog Telephone Adapter (for Skype)

Unfortunately, it's a little bit review-challenged on Amazon.com.

USRobotics USB to Analog Telephone Adapter Reviews on Amazon.com

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Good Information...

lcompton wrote:
HolmanGT wrote:
I just discovered last night that USRobotics makes an (any) analog phone to USB converter for use with Skype.

With that gadget you should have the same advantages with the ability to use any phone as with MagicJack.


Good afternoon, George.

Good information. I just tracked down the USB adapter using the information you provided. It looks pretty decent.

USRobotics USB to Analog Telephone Adapter (for Skype)

Unfortunately, it's a little bit review-challenged on Amazon.com.

USRobotics USB to Analog Telephone Adapter Reviews on Amazon.com

Thank you.

Lisa Smile


Ouch !!! after reading those reviews you could get me to touch it with your analog phone... Laughing
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BuffaloChuck
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject:

We are in our final week of testing and analyzing software for MJ and I certainly have STRONG DESIRES for it to succeed. But it's certainly clogging up service-usage-levels on any PC that launches it, and seems to open quite a few holes that should make all of us feel as insecure as all-get-out.

MJ's software doesn't have to be bad software to HOST bad software. It looks easy enough for 'phantoms' to access MJ's holes and allow anything to be called 'an update' - including a Keystroke Tracker, something that would copy every keystroke made on a PC, and sends those off via the Internet connection to some other website for any purpose THEY want - TOS or not.

THIS to me is far more than 'spooky'. This is just flat terrible.

We haven't found evidence of this, but we know there are tons of processing cycles that are occurring for either ungood reasons (bad programming, tons of loops) or to cover up bad reasons (hosting spyware type applets). Nothing like that IS occurring now, according to our trackers, but all of my widget-designers say it wouldn't be hard to do.

Anyone want to feed us all their credit-card info, user IDs and passwords? Any volunteers?

I'd hate to think that's what MJ is doing, or ALLOWING. But the whole "phantom" issue and experimenting IS yet another huge red-flag. This IS what malware vendors claim to do, each and every time.
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject:

BuffaloChuck wrote:
I'd hate to think that's what MJ is doing, or ALLOWING. But the whole "phantom" issue and experimenting IS yet another huge red-flag. This IS what malware vendors claim to do, each and every time.


These are the comments I mentioned earlier, where someone suggested MJ's behavior is malware-like, even though he hadn't detected any actual malware activity.

Behaviors are like malware


Something about UTSCI.exe


Mark
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject:

BuffaloChuck wrote:
We are in our final week of testing and analyzing software for MJ and I certainly have STRONG DESIRES for it to succeed. But it's certainly clogging up service-usage-levels on any PC that launches it, and seems to open quite a few holes that should make all of us feel as insecure as all-get-out.

MJ's software doesn't have to be bad software to HOST bad software. It looks easy enough for 'phantoms' to access MJ's holes and allow anything to be called 'an update' - including a Keystroke Tracker, something that would copy every keystroke made on a PC, and sends those off via the Internet connection to some other website for any purpose THEY want - TOS or not.

THIS to me is far more than 'spooky'. This is just flat terrible.

We haven't found evidence of this, but we know there are tons of processing cycles that are occurring for either ungood reasons (bad programming, tons of loops) or to cover up bad reasons (hosting spyware type applets). Nothing like that IS occurring now, according to our trackers, but all of my widget-designers say it wouldn't be hard to do.

Anyone want to feed us all their credit-card info, user IDs and passwords? Any volunteers?

I'd hate to think that's what MJ is doing, or ALLOWING. But the whole "phantom" issue and experimenting IS yet another huge red-flag. This IS what malware vendors claim to do, each and every time.


BuffaloChuck,

What the hell is this? Who is talking to whom? Have your ever heard of quotation marks and credit marks identifying what is being said by who and how you came by this information.

This post serves no purpose except to create needless worry and and discomfort among MagicJack users. And IMHO is nothing but a very poor trolling job.

If you can't back it up or make sense than don't post it.

PS - If you are a MagicJack employee, no wonder they have such a tough time with customer relations.
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BuffaloChuck
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject:

As I said, we're in our final week of testing. When we get the answers, I'll post 'em.

We've got a huge MagicJack bowl game with tons of advertising coming out, and for the malware vendors, this is like blood in the water. You may not like the 'needless trolling' but maybe you've been heard about the Madoff warnings that were called "needless worry", too.
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:17 pm    Post subject: Alarmist...

BuffaloChuck wrote:
As I said, we're in our final week of testing. When we get the answers, I'll post 'em.

We've got a huge MagicJack bowl game with tons of advertising coming out, and for the malware vendors, this is like blood in the water. You may not like the 'needless trolling' but maybe you've been heard about the Madoff warnings that were called "needless worry", too.


Good afternoon, BuffaloChuck.

I find your post needlessly alarmist. While it is true that the general population has a percentage of individuals who feel the need to spread FUD (that's Fear, Uncertainty and Doom), I think many will agree that this practice is unproductive and distracting.

Believe it or not, you and your programmers are not the only ones with programming skills who have looked at magicJack intensely. As it happens, there are a number of skilled programmers using magicJack. In fact, some of them even contribute here -- myself included.

I have seen no evidence of malware attempts by magicJack. I'll conceide your point that as magicJack grows, it increasingly becomes a hacker target. But, all software is a potential hacker target -- especially, if it listens on TCP ports.

It would be infinitely more productive if you posted some hard facts on specific hacks and exploits that you have found capable of compromising magicJack security. Quoting my use of the word spooked, while dramatic, is unimpressive.

I absolutely look forward to factual evidence of magicJack running malware or your discovered hacks and exploits showing how you and your programmers compromised magicJack.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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Kokkos
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Unbeleivable

Melly: The AC powered USB hub will help to maintain the call quality to support your phones.
Kokkos: Are you saying that a USB AC powered hub will fix the 4-line Panaosnic phone dialing out problems? Do you have receipt of such success with similar customer complaints?
Melly: Yes. Because that will supply enough power to support your 4-line Panasonic Phone.
Kokkos: OK I have one here I am setting up now
Melly: Okay.
Kokkos: it is applying the upgrade
Melly: Okay.
Kokkos: NO DIFFERENCE
Kokkos: Why is going back to a version that worked a problem?
Melly: NO.
Kokkos: Ok your update has destroyed the ability to use your services.
Melly: We are still doing upgrades Kokkos.
Melly: You may try again after a couple of hours.
Kokkos: I aloso have experienced dropped calls affter 30 minutes
Melly: I see.
Melly: For now, I will be refreshing your connectivity from our end. Please try to make calls after a couple of hours.
Kokkos: Are you restricting outbound calls length?
Melly: No.

Kokkos: You did that earlier today with no resolution. Right now I cannot use my phones because of half hazardly update that forced on customers during the Holidays.
Melly: I dont think that upgrade caused that problem. There might something else, it is just that it was only occurs after the upgrade.
Kokkos: If I disavble the upgrade for a few minutes I can dial using the older software update.
Melly: I see.
Kokkos: How can you say the upgrade has not caused this problem?
Melly: Our upgrade will help your magicjack to support and to work better, not to cause our clients a problem.
Kokkos: I would hope so but check http://www.phoneservicesupport.com and yu will see a much diffrent picture. Do you have no resolution in fixing MagicJack at my house except for wait a few hours?
Melly: No.

Let's see you can only do 2 of these aspects of business and still make money:

Price, Service, Quality

Doing only one is a recipe for bankruptcy (or bailout)

MagicJack might have 2 (price and Quality) but there inept service bleeds over into their quality.

Very frustrating,

Kokkos
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject:

lcompton,

Well thank you for stopping me from making a fool out of myself. I was going to respond to BuffaloChuck's second post, but fortunately you beet me to it.

Very eloquent response, allowing me to hold back on any further angry retorts.


Very best regards,
George

PS - "Madoff warnings" That is a bit of a stretch. Rolling Eyes And How do we know that you are not just a shill for some competitor or just some lonely soul attempting to entertain your self. Rhetorical, please don't bother responding.
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Alarmist...

lcompton wrote:
I find your post needlessly alarmist. While it is true that the general population has a percentage of individuals who feel the need to spread FUD (that's Fear, Uncertainty and Doom), I think many will agree that this practice is unproductive and distracting.


The last time I ran procmon to watch magicjackloader.exe, I saw some things that made me wonder why it was doing what it was. Like, accessing directories MagicJack had no reason to access.

Unfortunately, this is one of those things where all of MJ's behaviors reflect together. If Dan exhibited care in his treatment of his customers, such that it implied strong ethics, it would be easy to dismiss "odd" program behavior to just sloppy programming.

But, the sleazy web site. The "30-day trial ends today" (every day). The "come on" for expedited order handling at a higher price (when it arrives no faster than than the person who didn't pay for it). Selling four years as five. The way terminations were handled two months ago. The way the 30-minute cap was handled this week.

That's the problem with pushing the envelope in various areas. If it's done enough, it starts to look like a pattern. And then when someone sees strange software behavior, it's just natural to say "well, he's not exactly been concerned for his customers in other ways. Maybe this is another example...?"

IMO, it's hard to accuse others of planting "FUD" when Dan's done a pretty good job of planting it himself.

Mark
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:59 pm    Post subject:

Mark,

I agree with most of your statement. But who is this guy, claiming to be an MJ programmer. I guess that is what he is claiming????

His command of the English language leave some room for improvement also, which adds to my doubt that he is the person he claims to be. Besides we all know that Dan would not allow an unrehearsed post like this gentlemen posted!

Dan may not be on top of what his troops as he should be, but if I was this guy I would be seriously concerned about my next paycheck.
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neo1
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

az2008 wrote:
neo1 wrote:
I am a new MJ user. I have several concerns about MJ especially the spyware aspects and now the limitation on "unlimited" calling (which was the ad that I based the MJ purchase on).


1. Download and run "procmon" ...

It seems to be doing a lot more than just running the softphone. One person on this forum said he deems the softphone's processing to be a forum of malware, not necessisarily that the softphone is. Just that it shares characteristics in things it does (like registering itself with svchost?).

2....

3. I haven't seen an advertisement which actually uses the word "unlimited." Check the Terms of Service. Magicjack reserves the right to terminate users for "excessive use" (not defined). And, they did this two months ago. (Without warning. No notice. Not even letting the help desk know until 2-3 days after.).

But, you're right. The ads do lead one to believe they mean "unlimited." But, nothing's really unlimited. Most people know that. It's just too bad that the limits aren't defined. Other VOIP providers publish the limits.

Mark


Because of the low cost and association with Google I am still worried that it is acting as spyware. I just don't trust companies much lately. Just because they don't say it is spyware doesn't mean it is not. I am so concerned about this that I am not using the product. All of my phones were wired so I had to spend about $50 for a wireless phone just to get it to work. So now I have close to $100 in.

Their web site says: "Use the magicJack free for 30 days, make all the free calls you please." You are right that their site does not say that this continues after one pays for the service but I think most people would understand that it does.

I think I will follow the posts here for a while before using it much.

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. Cool
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neo1
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

lcompton wrote:
neo1 wrote:
I am a new MJ user. I have several concerns about MJ especially the spyware aspects and now the limitation on "unlimited" calling (which was the ad that I based the MJ purchase on). I feel I am the victim of unfair and misleading advertizing. You might want to go to Amazon and read some of the reviews on other Skype phones. The one you listed has poor reviews.


Good afternoon, neo1.

I was reading those reviews this morning during my Skype study. There are 37 reviews with an overall rating of three stars out of a possible five.

The recurring motif I observed in the reviews for that Skype telephone is that the reviews were very polarized (i.e. either one star or five stars). It seems that a few folks were frustrated with the Skype phone and chose to toss out a one star review rather than work through the challenges.

...

With regard to magicJack being spyware, I'm not concerned. The terms of service and privacy policy pretty much spell out what magicJack does with customer data. The terms of service also state that magicJack can change the terms of service whenever they want. It helps to keep that in mind since I did actually sign up for that. But, I run magicJack on dedicated telephony servers, which don't actually contain any personal information other than what magicJack already has. So, the only potentially useful information magicJack has are my calling patterns and the content of my telephone calls (i.e. the conversations themselves.) But, Verizon had access to this same information when I was with them. I'm not seeing much difference.

magicJack is definitely free-wheeling. There's no doubt about that. But, they're small and still trying to get their technical infrastructure right. So, I don't mind occasional issues. But, I have to say, the call cap thing really spooked me. There is no way I can live with that.

Thank you for writing.

Lisa Smile


I do not have a separate clean computer to run MJ on so I am still very worried about the spyware issue.

In looking at the Skype phones at Amazon, the GE seemed better. It is nice that it almost works like a cell phone too since one can use any wireless network. The GE is nice as it can be used as a regular wired phone too.

Thanks! Smile
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Alarmist...

Mark:

az2008 wrote:
The last time I ran procmon to watch magicjackloader.exe, I saw some things that made me wonder why it was doing what it was. Like, accessing directories MagicJack had no reason to access.


This is exactly my point. Not knowing why something is behaving the way it is, so-called unexplained behavior, is not the same thing as malware or spyware. Malware and spyware are not unexplained behavior at all. They are perfectly explained -- albeit as malware and spyware.

Unexplained program behavior is exactly that, unexplained. It is infinitely more productive to share facts and specific details about unexplained program behavior so that the collective here and elsewhere can replicate, observe and comment on the behavior.

I don't have enough information to help you decipher why process monitor reported what it did. But, there are any number of possible explanations, many of which are perfectly legitimate depending upon the APIs being called.

az2008 wrote:
IMO, it's hard to accuse others of planting "FUD" when Dan's done a pretty good job of planting it himself.


When I was in the sixth grade (a really really really long time ago), we were introduced to something called the scientific method. I have to believe that most of us were introduced to this process of reasoning in elementary school. It baffles me how we've lost sight of the basic tenets of observing, forming hypothesis, testing our hypothesis and then forming conclusions.

In short, I respectfully disagree that anything Dan has done can justify anyone else behaving poorly.

The really strange thing to me is that we all want the same thing; i.e. inexpensive and reasonably reliable telephony service. There are quite a few contributors here who source their posts and provide excellent supporting information. I'm not going to apologize for being critical of folks who toss out reckless posts absent supporting facts -- especially, when those posts quote me for dramatic effect and raise the flag to the top of the flagpole by asserting major security risks.

A better strategy would be to ask questions such as, "Has anyone found any specific evidence of magicJack transmitting non-magicJack-related content off of their computer? If so, what content was transmitted and under what circumstances." Etc. You get the idea.

Instead, we seem to have a surplus of provocateurs who post titillating statements absent specific information that leave many more questions than answers.

I wish Dan would hire me to perform a thorough security audit of his application. Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea for Dan to have an independent third-party look at the application and certify it. Of course, that would cost money...

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:33 pm    Post subject:

HolmanGT wrote:
I agree with most of your statement. But who is this guy, claiming to be an MJ programmer. I guess that is what he is claiming????


I think you and Lisa overreacted a little. I didn't read it the same way. I thought he said he (and his employer?) are evaluating MJ, and they found the sloppy programming to be *prone to* malware. Maybe even resembling malware practices without actually engaging in malicious activity. Similar to what the "Vanguard" guy said.

I saw magicjackloader.exe accessing my browser history/cache directory a few weeks ago. That made me feel uneasy. I wouldn't say MJ is doing anything malicious. But, it looks suspicious.

And, then all the other behaviors from Dan don't make me feel like I should give him the benefit of the doubt. It's not like he has a history of putting his customers interest first.

His post might have been a bit too colorfully suggestive. But, I didn't see any specific accusation of being malware. Although he dis say it could be easy to hack. Unlike Lisa, I'd rather he didn't post specifics. Smile No need to give anyone any ideas.

Mark
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neo1
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject:

BuffaloChuck wrote:
I'd hate to think that's what MJ is doing, or ALLOWING. But the whole "phantom" issue and experimenting IS yet another huge red-flag. This IS what malware vendors claim to do, each and every time.


I am glad to see this posted. For a number of reasons I am worried that MJ may be an open door to data on my computer.

This should probably be on a separate thread.

Smile
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

neo1 wrote:
In looking at the Skype phones at Amazon, the GE seemed better. It is nice that it almost works like a cell phone too since one can use any wireless network. The GE is nice as it can be used as a regular wired phone too.


neo1:

Do you have a link that you can share for the GE Skype phone? I didn't find that one when I was looking at Skype phones earlier.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Alarmist...

lcompton wrote:
This is exactly my point. Not knowing why something is behaving the way it is, so-called unexplained behavior, is not the same thing as malware or spyware.


Maybe I didn't read it the same way you did. Can you quote the part where he said it is malware?

lcompton wrote:
In short, I respectfully disagree that anything Dan has done can justify anyone else behaving poorly.


I didn't say he did. Just that, when someone engages in behaviors that show contempt for their customers, and their own reputation (in terms of conducting business ethically), when something looks suspicious, folks aren't likely to react with "but that would be so out of character."

When it comes to FUD, Dan's done a pretty good job of creating a target-rich environment. Does that excuse anyone of engaging in FUD? No. But, "when you sleep with pigs."

lcompton wrote:
Instead, we seem to have a surplus of provocateurs who post titillating statements absent specific information that leave many more questions than answers.


For someone who just last night dismissed passions as misplaced, because "it's just business..." Razz Razz Razz

Mark
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neo1
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject:

Hi Lisa!

I just typed in "skype phone" at Amazon but the link is:

http://www.amazon.com/GE-SKYPE-Dect-Cordless-phone/dp/B000QXAU8I/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1230331485&sr=8-1

I am like you and probable most people here trying to reduce my phone bill.

Smile
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Not Overreacting At All...

Mark:

az2008 wrote:
I think you and Lisa overreacted a little. I didn't read it the same way. I thought he said he (and his employer?) are evaluating MJ, and they found the sloppy programming to be *prone to* malware. Maybe even resembling malware practices without actually engaging in malicious activity. Similar to what the "Vanguard" guy said.


I think you're too quick to accept unsubstantiated critiques of magicJack. It makes good sense to challenge assertions to ascertain their validity.

Also, the poster in question didn't attribute their findings to sloppy programming. He said that they were unsure whether or not their findings were the result of slopping programming or something intentionally nefarious.

az2008 wrote:
His post might have been a bit too colorfully suggestive. But, I didn't see any specific accusation of being malware. Although he dis say it could be easy to hack. Unlike Lisa, I'd rather he didn't post specifics. Smile No need to give anyone any ideas.


I saw his post as provocative without justification. It was worthy of being challenged, which is what any of you would do if I waltzed in here and claimed that the magicJack application sent all of my financial institution login credentials to some server in the magicJack domain. And, you'd be right to challenge such a claim.

Hacks and exploits should absolutely be published, which is a common practice. It provides application users with useful information to defend against such hacks and exploits and the application publisher the information necessary to develop a security patch.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Outbound Calls Now Forcibly Terminating At 60 Minutes...

neo1 wrote:
I think I will follow the posts here for a while before using it much.


I don't think you have too much to worry about. There are a lot of hacker types using MJ. If it began uploading your hard disk to the mothership, it would be found out pretty quickly.

Whether MJ begins doing something like that is anyone's guess. I haven't been impressed with the degree of professionalism I've seen so far. It leads me to believe anything's possible (more so than with most companies).

You can save a lot of money using MJ, for however long it works for you. That's kind of the problem. There are a lot of people like myself who haven't had any serious problems. And then there are those who get hit hard. I never rest on the belief that everything's peachy because it's worked 99% for me. It's just a matter of time until I have a severe outage, and will wonder if it's worth it.

Mark
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:00 pm    Post subject: Isn't That the Truth!

neo1 wrote:
I just typed in "skype phone" at Amazon but the link is:

http://www.amazon.com/GE-SKYPE-Dect-Cordless-phone/dp/B000QXAU8I/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1230331485&sr=8-1

I am like you and probable most people here trying to reduce my phone bill.


neo1:

I appreciate the link. I must have missed it when I was poking around on Amazon.com looking at phones. The link certainly helps a lot.

And, yes, I'm trying desparately to stretch the severely limited financial resources that I have, which is what inspired me to try magicJack in the first place.

My problem is that I'm a geek and I can't seem to resist debate. It's like an unhealthy addiction. I need to go back to chocolates. Smile

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Not Overreacting At All...

lcompton wrote:
I think you're too quick to accept unsubstantiated critiques of magicJack. It makes good sense to challenge assertions to ascertain their validity.


More so lately than in the past. I used to go to bat for Dan. But, after the course he's been following without waver lately, I'm willing to let others knock themselves out defending what increasingly looks like it's not worth defending.

I just try to stay in the middle, with a balanced point of view. I don't have misplaced passions, because this is "just business..." Smile I'll let others carry the torch for awhile. I'll try to see both sides.

Re: exploits. I thought it was customary to notify the owner of the software to give them a chance to fix it. Or, at least prepare. That seems like it would be much more constructive. I'd rather see that regardless of your selfish desire to know.

Mark
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Alarmist...

az2008 wrote:
lcompton wrote:
This is exactly my point. Not knowing why something is behaving the way it is, so-called unexplained behavior, is not the same thing as malware or spyware.


Maybe I didn't read it the same way you did. Can you quote the part where he said it is malware?


He suggests that magicJack may have been programmed to cover up "spyware type" applications in his fourth paragraph. There are a number of provocative statements throughout that post that lack substantiation.

It appears that I have a stricter standard than you when someone makes claims. I want to see the evidence. It's not enough for me to throw around claims to grab way more attention than is deserved. In fact, this is going to be my last post on this. It's purely a waste of time until there are some hard facts presented.

az2008 wrote:
lcompton wrote:
Instead, we seem to have a surplus of provocateurs who post titillating statements absent specific information that leave many more questions than answers.


For someone who just last night dismissed passions as misplaced, because "it's just business..." Razz Razz Razz


I don't get it. How is my desire to see good information shared a matter of passion? Well, on second thought, you're right. I am passionate about the sharing of good information. That's not a magicJack thing, that's me.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Not Overreacting At All...

Mark:

az2008 wrote:
Re: exploits. I thought it was customary to notify the owner of the software to give them a chance to fix it. Or, at least prepare. That seems like it would be much more constructive. I'd rather see that regardless of your selfish desire to know.


Awww... Selfish? Surely, you can do better than that. If you're going to engage in name-calling, at least be creative and don't hold back.

It depends who finds the exploit or hack. Anti-virus and security firms usually notify the software publisher first. But, if the exploit is discovered in the general user community, it's usually posted in one of the many open security vulnerability forums on the Internet so end-users can take action prior to the arrival of a security patch from the software publisher.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Not Overreacting At All...

lcompton wrote:
it's usually posted in one of the many open security vulnerability forums on the Internet so end-users can take action prior to the arrival of a security patch from the software publisher.


That's better. Previously you said it "absolutey should be." It sounds a little more balanced to say "usually," which leaves room for exceptions.

I would encourage him to make Dan aware. Give 15 days. I think that would be more constructive.

Re: "Selfish." I didn't use that as "name-calling." Just your "self-interest." Unlike my "self-interest" that a vulnerability be communicated first to the provider so they have a fix ready before every whack job learns of it.

Mark
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Alarmist...

lcompton wrote:
He suggests that magicJack may have been programmed to cover up "spyware type" applications in his fourth paragraph.


So did Vanguard. It could be possible MJ "may" have been written to cover up spyware-type applications or activity.

I mean, why did magicjackloader.exe access my browser cache?

Mark
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neo1
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:32 pm    Post subject:

az2008 wrote:
BuffaloChuck wrote:
I'd hate to think that's what MJ is doing, or ALLOWING. But the whole "phantom" issue and experimenting IS yet another huge red-flag. This IS what malware vendors claim to do, each and every time.


These are the comments I mentioned earlier, where someone suggested MJ's behavior is malware-like, even though he hadn't detected any actual malware activity.

Behaviors are like malware


Something about UTSCI.exe


Mark


Hi Mark!

Thanks for posting this. I don't understand all of the posts but I am glad to see that others are concerned about the possible spyware issue. Once again, I think I will just not use it much until this issue is resolved one way or the other.

The posts brought up another issue. Is there no way to completely remove the MJ software from my computer now?

Thanks! Smile
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Not Overreacting At All...

az2008 wrote:
lcompton wrote:
it's usually posted in one of the many open security vulnerability forums on the Internet so end-users can take action prior to the arrival of a security patch from the software publisher.


That's better. Previously you said it "absolutey should be." It sounds a little more balanced to say "usually," which leaves room for exceptions.


What I said previously was, "Hacks and exploits should absolutely be published, which is a common practice. It provides application users with useful information to defend against such hacks and exploits and the application publisher the information necessary to develop a security patch."

That's exactly correct. I prefer to have the information as soon as possible so I can evaluate the potential threat and react accordingly independent of waiting for the software publisher. My use of the term usually refers to the practice of explots sometimes being shared with software publishers prior to being disclosed more generally. It doesn't negate my assertion that exploits and hacks should be shared generally.

az2008 wrote:
I would encourage him to make Dan aware. Give 15 days. I think that would be more constructive.


I would encourage him to proceed as he sees fit. But, I wouldn't object to any exploits being shared in this forum at any time provided they are accurate and well-substantiated.

az2008 wrote:
Re: "Selfish." I didn't use that as "name-calling." Just your "self-interest." Unlike my "self-interest" that a vulnerability be communicated first to the provider so they have a fix ready before every whack job learns of it.


Oh, well, I read your post differently than you did. To me it came across as a common name-calling exercise. Your clarification is much better. Now, I see that you assumed that my motivation for having exploits and hacks shared immediately was driven by self-interest and selfishness rather than the legitimate and reasonable desire to protect myself from potential threats. It's good that you clarified that.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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az2008
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject:

neo1 wrote:
The posts brought up another issue. Is there no way to completely remove the MJ software from my computer now?


No. There are some instructions to (http://www.uninstallmagicjack.com) explaining how to remove registry entries, delete disk directories. I believe the first set come from MJ chat support. I've seen them posted before and it was said that's what MJ support told someone to do. But, someone tried it last night and almost broke his computer.

There is a guy named "RockyBB" on the www.dslreports.com forum (for Magicjack). He used to go on a tear about the absence of an uninstall program, and how it meant MJ intends to perform malicious activities after it builds a large enough user base.

I thought he was exaggerating. I used to argue with him at length to defend MJ at least from what seemed like excessive accusations. But, I don't care any more. Dan's creating his own reputation. There's no reason for me to go out of my way to defend him. Seeing that it's just business. Smile And, there are plenty of others who are ready to take up the cause. I'll let them have a go at it.

But, you could swing by there and search the forum for "uninstall" or "malware." Revive the old topic and get Rocky's thoughts on the matter. He's been quiet lately.

Mark
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Alarmist...

az2008 wrote:
lcompton wrote:
He suggests that magicJack may have been programmed to cover up "spyware type" applications in his fourth paragraph.


So did Vanguard. It could be possible MJ "may" have been written to cover up spyware-type applications or activity.

I mean, why did magicjackloader.exe access my browser cache?

Mark


Mark:

The reason that comes to mind is that the magicJack application has a mini HTML renderer within it to display the softphone advertisements. Since these advertisements rotate and use graphic images, it makes sense that the data is cached in the browser cache. So, during the advertisement cycling process, the magicJack application queried the browser cache for advertisement content.

This is one plausible explanation. There could be others. It would be necessary to identify the specific files being accessed by what APIs to garner a definitive explanation of what is occurring.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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lcompton
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania, United States

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:55 pm    Post subject: Much More Sensible...

Mark:

az2008 wrote:
Seeing that it's just business. Smile


I'm pleased to see that you've come around to seeing magicJack for what it is.

Good job. It just goes to show what we all grow.

Thank you.

Lisa Smile
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