magicJack and magicJack Plus Support, Reviews, FAQs and Hacks magicJack and magicJack Plus Unofficial Technical Support. Your Magic Jack and Magic Jack Plus phone service information resource    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  5 year platinum plan warranty Goto page 1, 2  Next          magicJack and magicJack Plus Support, Reviews, FAQs and Hacks Forum Index -> magicJack Reviews, Rants and Raves View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject: 5 year platinum plan warranty Back in April of 2008 I signed up for the 5 year platinum preferred plan. It states a 5 year warranty. apparently magicjack is not honoring this. Has anybody else purchased this and tried to use the warranty? Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Thanks for posting this. I doubt many people would have had the presence of mind to take a screen shot of all the promises they saw during the sales pitch. If you can't obtain satisfaction from MJ, the only other choice is to file a complaint with the BBB. There are links at the bottom of this page: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/MagicJack/Benefits_and_Criticism/Criticism Mark Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: A lot of good a screen shot will do me...tech doesn't have a clue. They keep trying to sell me the 5 yr plan again. Back to top strndedinalska Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 230 Location: Alaska Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:25 am    Post subject: [email protected] [email protected] Use those two email addresses. I ran in circles with tech chat until I pulled my hair out, which is rare for me. Once I found those two e-mail addresses here in the forums, my problems were resolved in hours, not days or weeks by people who were on top of their game and didn't try to sell me something I already purchased. Dan (or whoever answers his mail) even took upon themselves to do some work on my call quality without my insistence so now I have perfect quality and perfect service again. Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:38 pm    Post subject: Thanks, I will give them a try Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:24 pm    Post subject: 81 wrote: I went with the five year plan, I hope, for Dan's sake this wasn't a mistake. Ha. That looks like the Hell's Angels emblem as your avatar/logo. I bet Dan should be worried. Mark Back to top Anne MagicJack User Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Arkansas Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:01 am    Post subject: What is the problem with the 5-year plan? I just bought it. Anne Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: It's not the plan but the 5 yr warranty. Seems the folks on live chat know nothing about a 5 year warranty. The only warranty magicjack has is in the 30 day free trial. I have emailed Dan but its been over a week and have not received a response. And, if it breaks, you will have to buy another unit but you can't transfer your unused time to the new unit. Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:11 pm    Post subject: freekshow wrote: buy another unit but you can't transfer your unused time to the new unit. I've seen a couple posts from people saying they were able to associate a new MJ to their existing phone number (and unused time). It sounded like it was important to contact tech support before using the new MJ (and registering it). Maybe also important to keep going back to tech support until you get someone who knows how to do it. Mark Back to top Anne MagicJack User Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Arkansas Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Has anyone had a MJ last for 5-years? Surely it can't be that difficult to make a phone number portable to another unit - just some type of data entry trick. Anne[/b] Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Good to know.... Back to top davrow Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 179 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Anne wrote: Has anyone had a MJ last for 5-years? Not making fun of you, but that would be a good trick. MJ is only 2 years old. Back to top Anne MagicJack User Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Arkansas Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:22 pm    Post subject: [size=24][/size]Thank you for the information. I thought MJ had been advertising on TV longer than 2 years. Glad I found this forum. Anne Back to top davrow Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 179 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:42 pm    Post subject: Anne, I don't actually have a "first available" date, but the "old-timers" here only mention 2007. So I am making the assumption it started service that year. Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:45 pm    Post subject: davrow wrote: Anne, I don't actually have a "first available" date, but the "old-timers" here only mention 2007. So I am making the assumption it started service that year. I think it was "beta" in 2007. It became GA around March 2008? I don't remember. Mark Back to top tlcbj41v magicJack Apprentice Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 12 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Guys, does this plan includes replacement of the unit if it gets damage during that period...? Cheers Back to top Anne MagicJack User Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Arkansas Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject: I'm thinking that might be the issue. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but if the MJ is damaged, we start all over, right? Anne Back to top msiam Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 15 Nov 2007 Posts: 474 Location: WI Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:53 am    Post subject: MJ came around in March of 2007, My first of 8 I bought the following August when SunRocket did its nose dive..When I bought mine, I bought 1 for each o0f 2 sisters, 1 Brother, 1 son and a couple in case I need them. At first the service wasn't good enought to count on,but, it has gotten better and better with each upgrade since..Now .. things are just peachy.. Back to top Anne MagicJack User Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Arkansas Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:23 am    Post subject: So no one knows how long a unit will last since the company has only been in business two years. I've only had my MJ a week, and it has been great. I've called a sick relative every day and would not have done that on what AT&T was charging me for long distance. I'm grateful for this forum and especially the success stories people publish - it gives me hope I'll be using my MJ a long time. Anne Back to top davrow Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 179 Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject: I bought 2 units and 5 years each. Both currently work fine. I'm very leery of Dan's business practices, and I don't really expect the company to survive 5 years with him at the helm. I do not know if the company that buys it will allow us to continue using it. So I am keeping a close eye on alternatives. But I'm not jumping ship until they stop working as well as they are for us. Also, I'm not using a "softphone" solution (ATA, whatever you want to call it). Since this uses the MJ information but not the MJ dongle, this could be a way to get around a dongle dying prematurely. The service is still there, even if the dongle itself fails. Back to top Anne MagicJack User Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Arkansas Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:37 pm    Post subject: Can you please explain the last paragraph to a beginner? What is a soft phone and a dongle? Thank you, Anne Back to top davrow Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 179 Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Anne, softphone = program that runs a telephone on the computer without other hardware dongle = the MJ device itself that plugs into the USB port ATA = generic term I use to identify any other Internet phone device Lots of people here take the SIP info (the registration MJ uses to talk to its servers) and put it in different devices. Some just use a headset and the computer speakers and use the computer itself as the phone. Some use USB phones that need the MJ registration info, but do not use the dongle. Some use wireless devices that can work in wi-fi hotspots and such. These are the ATA, PAP2 and others. I've never used any of those, so I'm sorry I cannot explain it any better, as I don't know much. Back to top Anne MagicJack User Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Arkansas Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Thank you, Davrow. That's what I needed to know. From what I've read, the inventor is not a fly-by-night person - he may be unorthodox, but isn't the concept of MJ as well? It worked for me right out of the box, and I'm hopeful. Thanks again, Anne Back to top davrow Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 179 Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:39 am    Post subject: Anne, Not fly-by-night, perhaps... but definitely flaky. For instance, he is not really the inventor. He bought the stuff from TigerJet, rebranded it and calls it "new". And it is not unique. Skype has been doing this for years, as well as several other companies that have gone out of business already. Many of us feel he will only keep MJ until he gets an offer from Google or some other deep-pockets company that wants to take over an established customer base. With the economy in the shape it is, this is not likely to pan out, so he will keep it and continue to mismanage it. Back to top Rahim MagicJack Newbie Joined: 17 Nov 2008 Posts: 8 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:17 am    Post subject: I did not purchase this and will never do. They are trying to collect money as much as they can before they go bankrupt. I am using my unit and will renew it year by year if they still exist. If they disappear, something else will come up and might be better. My rule of thumb... never commit to a service from particular company or contract. These things are rip off; studies proved! Back to top Anne MagicJack User Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Arkansas Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: If I can use magicjack for six months with no problems, I will have recouped all my original investment; I won't be complaining, either, no matter what happens after that. Anne Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:23 am    Post subject: Rahim wrote: My rule of thumb... never commit to a service from particular company or contract. These things are rip off; studies proved! I think it depends on the risk/reward ratio, and each person's own tolerance for risk. Personally, I think $60 is a small amount to lose for potentially five years of free phone service. VOIP companies are risky enough. They have a track record of not succeeding. MJ adds additional risks in the way the service either works, or it doesn't. A person could go 6 days (or 2 years) and it inexplicably stops, with no way to fix the problem without buying a new jack (with 1 year). And then, there's no assurance you can add your unused time to the new jack. (There have been reports you can. But, it's not official.). Like any investment, each investor is different. Personally, I'd gamble $60 on the above risks. But, my problem is with Dan's poor business practices. The risk/reward calculation shifts too far to the "risk" side for my tastes when Dan misses almost every opportunity to behave ethically, and as if he has a concern for his reputation. I don't believe MJ will be around for 5 years the way Dan conducts business (with no regard for his reputation, or ethics). On the same day he told the BBB he would work to clean up his business practices (leading to so many *bitter* complaints), he was peddling 4 years of service as 5. A month later he implemented call caps without any notice, and without informing the tech support group. MJ is a great idea. It could be a "game changer" for the industry. It's too bad that Dan's behind it. I don't see him pulling it off. It needs someone with a different set of values. Mark Back to top robatino MagicJack Expert Joined: 29 Aug 2008 Posts: 97 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/worklife/01/12/entrepreneur.psychology/index.html Quote: Research by Harvard Business School psychology professor emeritus Abraham Zaleznik has unveiled a darker side to the entrepreneur's psyche. "Entrepreneurs tend to have a singular weakness that allows them to do things without checking their conscience," Zaleznik said. "Juvenile delinquents act and then try to sort things out afterward. I think entrepreneurs have this tendency." Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: robatino wrote: http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/worklife/01/12/entrepreneur.psychology/index.html Quote: Research by Harvard Business School psychology professor emeritus Abraham Zaleznik has unveiled a darker side to the entrepreneur's psyche. "Entrepreneurs tend to have a singular weakness that allows them to do things without checking their conscience," Zaleznik said. "Juvenile delinquents act and then try to sort things out afterward. I think entrepreneurs have this tendency." There's a book called "Crossing the Chasm" which discusses how new, game-changing, disruptive products come into being. It discusses the roles of different types of people that bring the necessary behaviors to cross various chasms (from visionary idea to ubiquitous acceptance). MJ reminds me of that book. The people behind TigerJet and SJPhone are the visionaries. Dan's the entrepreneur who took their ideas and gave them practicality (early adopters). But, not the guy to cross the next chasm, to the "followers." They people who follow the lead of early adopters, and populate the top of the Bell curve. Great idea. But, only good for early adopters who are willing to put up with a lot of problems (technical and self-inflicted by the entrepreneur who doesn't understand the needs of the "followers."). The comparison to a juvenile delinquent is good. Entrepreneurs cut a lot of corners and can rationalize anything. Consider how Jobs capitalized on Wozniak. Mark Back to top aaronwt magicJack Apprentice Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 13 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject: And how is that different from other products? davrow wrote: Anne, Not fly-by-night, perhaps... but definitely flaky. For instance, he is not really the inventor. He bought the stuff from TigerJet, rebranded it and calls it "new". And it is not unique. Skype has been doing this for years, as well as several other companies that have gone out of business already. Many of us feel he will only keep MJ until he gets an offer from Google or some other deep-pockets company that wants to take over an established customer base. With the economy in the shape it is, this is not likely to pan out, so he will keep it and continue to mismanage it. Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject: aaronwt wrote: And how is that different from other products? I wouldn't say it's different. Just that Dan's better at it than most. A lot of businesses are only interested in the bottom line (instead of ethics). But, I don't see too many of them selling four years of service as five -- at the same time they're meeting with the BBB promising to improve business practices leading to so many complaints. Which was just a month after terminating users for excessive use, without warning (or informing the support group). And, a month before implementing a 30-minute call cap without warning (or informing the support group). Dan has a certain naivety, or brazenness that sets him above your average business. Mark Back to top davrow Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 179 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: az2008 said it all. Although I might have said "apart from" rather than "above" other businesses. Good response, Mark. Back to top aaronwt magicJack Apprentice Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 13 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Many of the electronics store, like Best Buy, offer extened warranties for say 4 years that run concurrently with the manufacturer warranty. Back to top davrow Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 179 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: aaronwt wrote: Many of the electronics store, like Best Buy, offer extened warranties for say 4 years that run concurrently with the manufacturer warranty. That's a good point, except... that is two companies offering competing products (warranties on products). Not one company compressing its own product. Almost, but not quite, a valid comparison. Also, I don't think you are quite getting our point. Yes, other companies engage in similar fraud. Dan just takes it to a new level, including most of the various forms of fraud all at the same time, instead of just one or two unethical behaviors. . Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:08 pm    Post subject: aaronwt wrote: Many of the electronics store, like Best Buy, offer extened warranties for say 4 years that run concurrently with the manufacturer warranty. I think the four years marketed as five started with that kind of premise. It began as a come-on offer when you purchased your MJ. After confirming the purchase you were presented with the option to buy 5 years for $59.99. I remember thinking I was buying 5 *more* years. It turned out that I was only replacing the 1-year plan with a 5-year plan. It was still a good deal. And, I could see the rationale behind it, although that was my first impression that Dan plays a little fast and loose with the truth. However, even though that may have been justified, it wasn't justified when he sold 4 years as "your next 5 years" when people had 2 to 6 months left on their original plan. He went a fib too far with that one. If he was selling a "replacement" or concurrent plan (as you're describing), that would have been fine. I'd even say it would have been a good deal. But, selling it as "your next five years" when it might only be four years was another sign of Dan's expanded boundaries of "truth" compared to most people. Mark Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:14 pm    Post subject: davrow wrote: Yes, other companies engage in similar fraud. Dan just takes it to a new level, including most of the various forms of fraud all at the same time, instead of just one or two unethical behaviors. To me that's the issue. It's like saying all salesmen lie. It's just that Dan exhibits sociopathic behaviors. He doesn't seem to even know he's lying. Mark Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Just got an email from a guy named Richard regarding warranty... Dear Customer, When you purchase the five year plan you also receive a five year warranty on your magicJack, and will be replaced free of charge if needed. If you receive a replacement we can transfer the five year plan to the replacement magicJack. Sincerely, Richard magicJack Tech Support Manager Back to top az2008 MagicJack Sensei Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1404 Location: Tempe, AZ Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject: freekshow wrote: Just got an email from a guy named Richard regarding warranty... Dear Customer, When you purchase the five year plan you also receive a five year warranty on your magicJack, and will be replaced free of charge if needed. If you receive a replacement we can transfer the five year plan to the replacement magicJack. Sincerely, Richard magicJack Tech Support Manager That's good. This is more conclusive than a few scattered reports of people being able to transfer their time to a new jack (only *if* they contacted chat support before registering the jack, and *if* they reach a chat support person who knows this is a policy.). The next step will be to see if chat support knows about this, and how visible it will be to MJ customers who didn't read this thread. Mark Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: Everybody knows the frustration in dealing with chat support. Hope this information will get passed on to them. Back to top GEM MagicJack Newbie Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Florida Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject: Magic Jack 5 year warranty I just finished with the online support. I have emailed [email protected] as will. It seems that the tech support thinks that the 5 year purchase only applies to purchasing the additional years. I found online a screenshot of their warranty that states "5 year No questions asked Full warranty". They will not replace the device. I guess now I go to the BBB and the State Attorneys Office to file complaints. This device worked great for awhile but has degraded over the past 6 months. I have owned almost 2 years now. Customer service did offer to refund the 5 year extended purchase? Which would be cheaper? Send me a new MJ or lose $50? Back to top VaHam Dan Should Pay Me Joined: 13 Feb 2008 Posts: 851 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:59 pm    Post subject: aaronwt wrote: Many of the electronics store, like Best Buy, offer extened warranties for say 4 years that run concurrently with the manufacturer warranty. The thing about MJ ads are that the 5 year cost difference is also stated as the cost for 5 years 5X19.95=99.75 The ad shows the price discount comparing the $99 cost to $59 so not only are the words deceptive but the cost figures clearly show the deception. It should be 4X19.95=79.80 compared to 59 to reflect the actual offer. Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Magic Jack 5 year warranty GEM wrote: I just finished with the online support. I have emailed [email protected] as will. It seems that the tech support thinks that the 5 year purchase only applies to purchasing the additional years. I found online a screenshot of their warranty that states "5 year No questions asked Full warranty". They will not replace the device. I guess now I go to the BBB and the State Attorneys Office to file complaints. This device worked great for awhile but has degraded over the past 6 months. I have owned almost 2 years now. Customer service did offer to refund the 5 year extended purchase? Which would be cheaper? Send me a new MJ or lose $50? Let us know what kind of response you get. The email I got from them said they would honor the 5yr warranty , but as we know what they say and what they do are two different things. You say customer service did offer to refund the 5 year extended purchase? How much would that be? It might be better to get the refund and then buy a new one and go yeat to year. Back to top GEM MagicJack Newbie Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Florida Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject: Replacement of magicjack Here is a reply from "Richard" in technical support. We'll see how it goes from here: Dear Al, Of course we will replace the magicJack for you. When we process the replacement, we authorize $39.95 on your card but we do not charge you. As long as you return the old magicJack when the new magicJack arrives we will not charge you for the replacement. If this is ok with you, I will go ahead and process the replacement. Let me know. Sincerely, Richard magicJack Tech Support Manager Quote: Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:27 pm    Post subject: GEM, You have the 5yr warranty? Back to top GEM MagicJack Newbie Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Florida Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: 5 Year warranty Yes, when I bought almost 2 years ago, I paid an additional 59.99 for a total of 5 years phone service AND a 5 year warranty on the magicjack. Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Hope it works out and you don't have to jump thru to many hoops. I miss read your reply from Richard and thought they were going to charge you 39.95. I missed the part that said if you return it there will be no charge. Keep us posted. Back to top GEM MagicJack Newbie Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Florida Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject: Magic Jack 5 year platinum warranty I received a new magicjack in the mail and returned the broke one. I had to give a credit card number to receive the new one and return the bad one within 2 weeks (advance RMA) so as not to be charged. I can understand the reason behind this. So far everything is o.k. I have a new number but it is "local" which is o.k. as well. Back to top freekshow magicJack Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: Glad to hear that it's all working out. Doesn't sound like you had to jump thru to many hoops.... Back to top heartlandpom magicJack Apprentice Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 20 Location: Indiana Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:18 pm    Post subject: So called 5 year plan with platinum code I can't put the way I feel at the moment about MJ because I don't use that kind of language. I also paid for the 5 year service with my platinum code that no matter how many times I enter it on my page, it doesn't work. Then of course there is the so called 24 hour support that doesn't exist. GGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRR any way to reach someone to straighten this out, or do you just have to pay again or get some other service!! Dianne Back to top cdwaldron Dan isn't smart enough to hire me Joined: 26 Jul 2008 Posts: 107 Location: Tucson, AZ Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Diane Did you check your account and see if your expiration date is the correct date? At one point in time, you did have to enter the code but no longer. I don't know why they even send the email anymore! 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