magicJack  and magicJack Plus Support, Reviews, FAQs and Hacks Forum Index

magicJack and magicJack Plus Support, Reviews, FAQs and Hacks


magicJack and magicJack Plus Unofficial Technical Support. Your Magic Jack and Magic Jack Plus phone service information resource
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Haiti & Church Missionaries



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    magicJack and magicJack Plus Support, Reviews, FAQs and Hacks Forum Index -> The Lounge
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:40 am    Post subject: Haiti & Church Missionaries Reply with quote

I mean dees anyone seriously believe that they were doing anything other than trying to help some poor children. If the government of Haiti can't treat folks who are trying to help better than that; then we should give our military orders to evacuate all US citizens put them on our ships there and leave. See how long that stupid government stays in power after we leave because of their actions!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PTravel
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I believe it. According to a number of reports from the parents of children, these kidnappers lied to them about what they were doing. They weren't "just trying to help," they were trying to steal children for adoption so that they could be brought in their extreme Baptist beliefs.

These people belong in jail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PTravel wrote:
Yes, I believe it. According to a number of reports from the parents of children, these kidnappers lied to them about what they were doing. They weren't "just trying to help," they were trying to steal children for adoption so that they could be brought in their extreme Baptist beliefs.

These people belong in jail.


Right we always have to be vigilant of those "extreme Baptist beliefs". Smile

I think you need to study what constitutes "kidnapping". You may also want to study our laws concerning libel. Once a defamatory accusation is made in writing it becomes libellous. The importance of this is that in libel the injury of the accused is assumed and need not be proven; thus the burden of proof falls on the accuser to prove the claim they made as that is the only practical defense for a libellous claim.

Source: "Haitian P.M.: Americans 'Knew What They Were Doing Was Wrong'"
Quote:
But the hard reality on the ground in this desperately poor country � especially after the catastrophic Jan. 12 quake � is that some parents openly attest to their willingness to part with their children if it will mean a better life.

It was a sentiment expressed by all but one of some 20 Haitian parents interviewed at a tent camp Sunday that teemed with children whose toys were hewn from garbage.

"Some parents I know have already given their children to foreigners," said Adonis Helman, 44. "I've been thinking how I will choose which one I may give � probably my youngest."

Many religious groups run legitimate adoption agencies and orphanages in Haiti. Some of the children in them aren't actually orphans, but have been left by relatives who can't afford their care.


Source: "Haitian Parents Say They Willingly Gave Kids to Detained Americans"

Quote:
The missionaries' lawyer, Jorge Puello, told the AP on Wednesday "they willingly accepted kids they knew were not orphans because the parents said they would starve otherwise."

The parents of four children taken by Silsby said the Americans took down contact information for all the families and assured them that a relative would be able to visit them in the Dominican Republic.

The Haitian parents told The Associated Press they surrendered their children on Jan. 28, two days after a local orphanage worker acting on behalf of the Baptists convened nearly the entire village of about 500 people on a dirt soccer pitch to present the Americans' offer.

The orphanage worker, Issac Adrien, said he told the villagers their children would be educated at a home in the Dominican Republic so that they might eventually return to take care of their families.

Many parents jumped at the offer. The village school had collapsed and their homes were destroyed in Haiti's catastrophic Jan. 12 quake, and they had no money to feed the children, they said.

"It's only because the bus was full that more children didn't go," said Melanie Augustin, a 58-year-old who gave her 10-year-old daughter, Jovin, to the Americans. Ironically, Augustin had adopted Jovin because her birth parents couldn't afford to care for her.

Adrien said he brought the Americans to this mountain village where people scrape by growing carrots, peppers and onions. He told the AP he met their leader, Laura Silsby of Boise, Idaho, at a school in Port-au-Prince two days earlier.


If they intended to simply spirit the children away, why would they have collected contact information and tagged the children?

I personally believe that the missionaries began with plans to setup an orphanage and facilitate legal adoptions prior to the quake. After the quake I believe they they reacted by attempting to use the facilities they were already working on in the DR to provide relief to starving people including those who had parents who were not able to take care of them.

I do believe that at least the leader of the group knew they did not have all the proper paperwork in order. I also believe that many will die while bureaucrats in Haiti seek bribes to complete paperwork. To treat these people as if they had stolen children and were intending to put them into slavery is gross distortion of fact! And to treat them in the same manner as those who's intent is to do that sort of thing is totally unjustified. The children were either from a collapsed orphanage or given to the missionaries by their relatives.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PTravel
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VaHam wrote:
PTravel wrote:
Yes, I believe it. According to a number of reports from the parents of children, these kidnappers lied to them about what they were doing. They weren't "just trying to help," they were trying to steal children for adoption so that they could be brought in their extreme Baptist beliefs.

These people belong in jail.


Right we always have to be vigilant of those "extreme Baptist beliefs". Smile
Those Baptists who are extremists, absolutely.

Quote:
I think you need to study what constitutes "kidnapping".
Kidnapping is taking a child without the knowing consent of its parent or guardian.

Quote:
You may also want to study our laws concerning libel.
I'm a licensed attorney, admitted to all state courts and the Supreme Court of California, the Central, Northern, Eastern and Southern federal District Courts of California. the 9th and 11th Circuit Courts of Appeal and the United States Supreme Court. You may assume I'm more than familiar with libel laws, just as I will now assume you are not.

Quote:
Once a defamatory accusation is made in writing it becomes libellous.
Incorrect. As I said, you don't understand defamation law.

Quote:
The importance of this is that in libel the injury of the accused is assumed and need not be proven;
Wrong again. In defamation per se, injury is assumed.

Quote:
thus the burden of proof falls on the accuser to prove the claim they made as that is the only practical defense for a libellous claim.
Don't play lawyer. You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

[quote]Source: "Haitian P.M.: Americans 'Knew What They Were Doing Was Wrong'"
Quote:
But the hard reality on the ground in this desperately poor country � especially after the catastrophic Jan. 12 quake � is that some parents openly attest to their willingness to part with their children if it will mean a better life.

It was a sentiment expressed by all but one of some 20 Haitian parents interviewed at a tent camp Sunday that teemed with children whose toys were hewn from garbage.

"Some parents I know have already given their children to foreigners," said Adonis Helman, 44. "I've been thinking how I will choose which one I may give � probably my youngest."

Many religious groups run legitimate adoption agencies and orphanages in Haiti. Some of the children in them aren't actually orphans, but have been left by relatives who can't afford their care.
You're quoting Fox News? Are you kidding? Well, I've heard interviews with parents whose children were taken by religious zealot kidnappers. I'm traveling today, so I don't have time to find you links. However, I'm sure that, while you're researching defamation law, you can also research this -- at least beyond "Fox News."

[quote]Source: "Haitian Parents Say They Willingly Gave Kids to Detained Americans"

Quote:
The missionaries' lawyer, Jorge Puello, told the AP on Wednesday "they willingly accepted kids they knew were not orphans because the parents said they would starve otherwise."

The parents of four children taken by Silsby said the Americans took down contact information for all the families and assured them that a relative would be able to visit them in the Dominican Republic.

The Haitian parents told The Associated Press they surrendered their children on Jan. 28, two days after a local orphanage worker acting on behalf of the Baptists convened nearly the entire village of about 500 people on a dirt soccer pitch to present the Americans' offer.
Yes, quote what the missionaries' lawyer said. That's certainly unbiased.

Quote:
The orphanage worker, Issac Adrien, said he told the villagers their children would be educated at a home in the Dominican Republic so that they might eventually return to take care of their families.
And as the missionaries' website made clear, their intent was to have the children adopted by "Christian" families.

Many parents jumped at the offer. The village school had collapsed and their homes were destroyed in Haiti's catastrophic Jan. 12 quake, and they had no money to feed the children, they said.



Quote:
If they intended to simply spirit the children away, why would they have collected contact information and tagged the children?
Oh, I don't know -- how about this: to mislead the parents.

Quote:
I personally believe that the missionaries began with plans to setup an orphanage and facilitate legal adoptions prior to the quake. After the quake I believe they they reacted by attempting to use the facilities they were already working on in the DR to provide relief to starving people including those who had parents who were not able to take care of them.
Why would I care what you believe?

Quote:
I do believe that at least the leader of the group knew they did not have all the proper paperwork in order. I also believe that many will die while bureaucrats in Haiti seek bribes to complete paperwork. To treat these people as if they had stolen children and were intending to put them into slavery is gross distortion of fact! And to treat them in the same manner as those who's intent is to do that sort of thing is totally unjustified. The children were either from a collapsed orphanage or given to the missionaries by their relatives.
Again your "belief" is irrelevant to anything -- your belief is formed by Fox News reports and clear misreading of what was reported. I'm only interested in facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, thank God, I am not a lawyer but lets face it the law is not rocket science.

Did you see where the missionary's Haitian lawyer has been fired for allegedly attempting to extort the families of the missionaries.

And I should have said slander rather than defamation in comparison to libel. (my mistake) But if your a lawyer you know the difference with regard to burden of proof between slander and libel.

Lets be be clear; are you saying the missionaries held in Haiti are "kidnappers"?

Quote:
Kidnapping is taking a child without the knowing consent of its parent or guardian.

By your definition since the families of the children other than orphans willing gave their children to the missionaries they could therefore not be "kidnappers" unless you have some evidence that some were taken against their will or without the knowledge of their parents/guardian's.

Source: Wikipedia
Quote:
Kidnapping is a common law offence requiring:

1. that one person takes and carries a minor away;
2. by force or fraud;
3. without the consent of the person taken; and
4. without lawful excuse.

It would be difficult to kidnap without also committing false imprisonment, which is the common-law offence of intentionally or recklessly detaining the victim without lawful authority. The use of force to take and detain will also be regarded as an assault, and other, related offences may also be committed before, during, or after the detention.

Alongside murder, kidnapping is the last significant offence under the common law which has yet to be codified into statute.

I will have to guess you are stretching the term "knowing" by, as CNN attempts to portray, the missionaries misrepresented their intent with regard to the ultimate disposition of the children thus constituting a fraud. Even if that were the case it would appear that it could only apply to Silsby and perhaps her nanny. The other missionaries clearly from all reports, including those of the left wing media, seem to me to indicate that they acted only in good faith. And even in the case of Silsby and her nanny there is nothing but faint circumstantial evidence that they committed any fraud. Yes I believe that Silsby knew the paperwork was not in order and chose to go forward to expedite the evacuation of the children. Perhaps she knew she could not raise sufficient bribe money to have the paperwork taken care of fast enough so that the children would not starve. But I have seen no information that would lead me to believe that anyone sought to do anything other than improve the lives of these desperate children.

Quote:
Quote:

The missionaries' lawyer, Jorge Puello, told the AP on Wednesday "they willingly accepted kids they knew were not orphans because the parents said they would starve otherwise."

The parents of four children taken by Silsby said the Americans took down contact information for all the families and assured them that a relative would be able to visit them in the Dominican Republic.

The Haitian parents told The Associated Press they surrendered their children on Jan. 28, two days after a local orphanage worker acting on behalf of the Baptists convened nearly the entire village of about 500 people on a dirt soccer pitch to present the Americans' offer.

Yes, quote what the missionaries' lawyer said. That's certainly unbiased.


Apparently your learned reading skills missed some portions (now highlighted in red) of the quotes from my source. The first sentence was included merely to help frame the following two. Do you have problems with the AP also?

I prefer my news sources to those who are in the liberal tank!

My opinion is just as valid as yours or anyone else's for that matter!

I feel certain when all the facts come to light, my opinion will be born out, but in the mean time innocent people, who took risks too try and help others, are suffering in some broken down jail.

We can discuss this further after all the facts are in but until then I maintain that all churches should cease support and our military pull out while innocents are being held hostage. The alleged extortion or bribe money side story associated with the missionary's Haitian lawyer should also prove to be an interesting topic of discussion as well.

Quote:
And as the missionaries' website made clear, their intent was to have the children adopted by "Christian" families.

Do you have a link to that website? CNN reported that no website existed for the DR orphanage and took issue with that since a brochure handed out by the missionaries stated that the parents would be able to keep track of the children on a website, but it had not yet been created.

Could it be possible that in the wake of the disaster their intent changed from that expressed when the filing for non-profit status was initiated? That certainly seems plausible to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
genomega
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Pensacola FL

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no functioning government Haiti. Do you have any idea what is being done to these children on the streets. All of the prisoners of the main prison are running loose, rapist, killers. These people had the paper work from the DR to take them to an orphanage. This is business as usual for the corrupt government of PR. They just expect to be paid off. These people that think it would be better for the children to fend for themselves on the streets are just Christian haters. That goes for CNN also. This so called leader of Haiti has been a big hindrance in the whole search, rescue, recovery effort. Demanding total control of everything just slowed everything down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PTravel
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VaHam wrote:
No, thank God, I am not a lawyer but lets face it the law is not rocket science.
It may not be rocket science, but it's also not something that someone can just "figure out."

Quote:
Did you see where the missionary's Haitian lawyer has been fired for allegedly attempting to extort the families of the missionaries.
No. What has that to do with anything?

Quote:
And I should have said slander rather than defamation in comparison to libel. (my mistake) But if your a lawyer you know the difference with regard to burden of proof between slander and libel.
There is no difference with regard to the burden of proof. However, you still do not understand the elements of either.

Quote:
Lets be be clear; are you saying the missionaries held in Haiti are "kidnappers"?
They certainly appear to be.
Quote:
Quote:
Kidnapping is taking a child without the knowing consent of its parent or guardian.

By your definition since the families of the children other than orphans willing gave their children to the missionaries they could therefore not be "kidnappers" unless you have some evidence that some were taken against their will or without the knowledge of their parents/guardian's.
Do you think the parents would have given permission if they had known the children would be put up for adoption?

Quote:
Source: Wikipedia
Quote:
Kidnapping is a common law offence requiring:

1. that one person takes and carries a minor away;
2. by force or fraud;
3. without the consent of the person taken; and
4. without lawful excuse.

It would be difficult to kidnap without also committing false imprisonment, which is the common-law offence of intentionally or recklessly detaining the victim without lawful authority. The use of force to take and detain will also be regarded as an assault, and other, related offences may also be committed before, during, or after the detention.
So what's your point?

Quote:
Alongside murder, kidnapping is the last significant offence under the common law which has yet to be codified into statute.

I will have to guess you are stretching the term "knowing" by, as CNN attempts to portray, the missionaries misrepresented their intent with regard to the ultimate disposition of the children thus constituting a fraud.
That's right.

Quote:
Even if that were the case it would appear that it could only apply to Silsby and perhaps her nanny. The other missionaries clearly from all reports, including those of the left wing media,
"Left wing media"? Which would that be? The Daily Worker?

Quote:
seem to me to indicate that they acted only in good faith.
Good faith is not a defense to a general intent crime.

Quote:
And even in the case of Silsby and her nanny there is nothing but faint circumstantial evidence that they committed any fraud.
I told you -- I heard interviews with the parents. That is not "faint circumstantial evidence."

Quote:
Yes I believe that Silsby knew the paperwork was not in order and chose to go forward to expedite the evacuation of the children. Perhaps she knew she could not raise sufficient bribe money to have the paperwork taken care of fast enough so that the children would not starve. But I have seen no information that would lead me to believe that anyone sought to do anything other than improve the lives of these desperate children.
If by, "improve the lives of these desperate children," you mean adopt them out to Christian families without either the knowledge or consent of their parents or the authorities, then yes -- and that is a crime.

<Fox News material snipped>

Quote:
Apparently your learned reading skills missed some portions (now highlighted in red) of the quotes from my source. The first sentence was included merely to help frame the following two. Do you have problems with the AP also?
I have no problems with AP. Provide a link to that and I'll read it. I don't read Fox News.

Quote:
I prefer my news sources to those who are in the liberal tank!
Feel free. Fox News has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned, and I have no interest in debating a Fox News story.

Quote:
My opinion is just as valid as yours or anyone else's for that matter!
Anyone's informed opinion is as valid as anyone else's. Yours appears to be restricted solely to what you've gleaned from Fox News. So, sorry, I'm not interested in anyone's opinion that derives from that source.

Quote:
I feel certain when all the facts come to light, my opinion will be born out, but in the mean time innocent people, who took risks too try and help others, are suffering in some broken down jail.
Whereas I'm basing my opinion, not on feelings, but on news reports, including interviews with parents of the some of the children, from a variety of sources.

Quote:
We can discuss this further after all the facts are in but until then I maintain that all churches should cease support and our military pull out while innocents are being held hostage.
Well, that's mighty Christian of you. I'd prefer that churches whose agenda is limited solely to helping those in need and doesn't include obtaining converts, our military, and other NGOs continue helping the people of Haiti.

Quote:
The alleged extortion or bribe money side story associated with the missionary's Haitian lawyer should also prove to be an interesting topic of discussion as well.
What's to discuss? I haven't heard the allegation and, since it appears to originate with Fox News, I don't give it any credit. Has the AP reported it?

Quote:
Quote:
And as the missionaries' website made clear, their intent was to have the children adopted by "Christian" families.

Do you have a link to that website? CNN reported that no website existed for the DR orphanage and took issue with that since a brochure handed out by the missionaries stated that the parents would be able to keep track of the children on a website, but it had not yet been created.
NPR reported that it did.

Quote:
Could it be possible that in the wake of the disaster their intent changed from that expressed when the filing for non-profit status was initiated? That certainly seems plausible to me.
It also seems plausible to me that they committed fraud to obtain non-profit status. However, that is mere speculation on both our parts and I see little reason to engage in it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
Did you see where the missionary's Haitian lawyer has been fired for allegedly attempting to extort the families of the missionaries.
No. What has that to do with anything?

Because IMHO in the end the facts will show that this is really and issues bribes pain and not paid to corrupt government officials in an attempt to help the people of Haiti.

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
And I should have said slander rather than defamation in comparison to libel. (my mistake) But if your a lawyer you know the difference with regard to burden of proof between slander and libel.
There is no difference with regard to the burden of proof. However, you still do not understand the elements of either.

Source: libel and slander
Quote:
"Whether the charge is libel or slander is important. Most libels are deemed injurious and give immediate ground for suit. However, only certain types of statements are slanderous per se and do not require proof of pecuniary damages; these include imputation of crime, of loathsome disease, or of professional or occupational incapacity. In other cases, there may not be any recovery unless the pecuniary loss caused by the injury is proved. The award to the successful plaintiff in a suit for defamation will usually include punitive, as well as compensatory, damages if the defendant willfully lied or published the defamation repeatedly."

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
Lets be be clear; are you saying the missionaries held in Haiti are "kidnappers"?
They certainly appear to be.

I am glad to see you have softened your statements by qualifying them with "appear to be" which shows that you are offering your opinion rather than a statement of fact which is how I interpreted your earlier statement quoted below with emphasis added.
PTravel wrote:

According to a number of reports from the parents of children, these kidnappers lied to them about what they were doing. They weren't "just trying to help," they were trying to steal children for adoption so that they could be brought in their extreme Baptist beliefs.

These people belong in jail.
I see no problem in questioning whether they are guilty of kidnapping but I have not seen any evidence which says they are in fact guilty of the crime. I have no problem with someone saying they believe something to be true but when it becomes a statement of fact without the evidence to support it I draw the line.

PTravel wrote:
Do you think the parents would have given permission if they had known the children would be put up for adoption?

Yes I do!
Source: The Huffington Post
Quote:
The Rev. Jean Sainvil told the AP that some of the children were orphans and might have been put up for adoption. Children with parents were to be kept in the Dominican Republic, and would not lose contact with their families, Sainvil said in Atlanta.

"Everybody agreed that they knew where the children were going. The parents were told, and we confirmed they would be allowed to see the children and even take them back if need be," he said.

Sainvil stressed that in Haiti it is not uncommon for parents who can't support their children to send them to orphanages. Such children accounted for some of the 380,000 orphans that Haiti, a country of 9 million, had before the quake.

Most parents said they wouldn't know what to do if they had to take the children back.

"I am living in a tent with a friend," said Lelly, who said most of his wife's close relatives were killed. "My main concern is that if the kids come back I'm not going to be able to feed them."


PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
And even in the case of Silsby and her nanny there is nothing but faint circumstantial evidence that they committed any fraud.
I told you -- I heard interviews with the parents. That is not "faint circumstantial evidence."
The parents could only have said what they were told. The faint circumstantial evidence of which I speak goes to the intent at the time of the missionaries. If there intent was to do what they told the parents then there was no fraud and thus no crime other than not having all the paperwork in order. I saw one report stating that they were asked to payup $300/head at the border and when they did not that is when they were arrested. You see I believe this will boil down to problems of bribery and extortion or lack thereof.

You seem convinced of the intent of the missionaries with regard to the disposition of those children who had living parents; I am not. If you have any evidence of their intent to offer up for adoption those children who had living parents and thus committed a fraud then please point me to sources of that evidence because I have not been able to find any.

PTravel wrote:
If by, "improve the lives of these desperate children," you mean adopt them out to Christian families without either the knowledge or consent of their parents or the authorities, then yes -- and that is a crime.
Where have you seen any evidence of children taked without consent of their parents? Where have you seen evidence that the missionaries intended to offer up for adoption those children who had living parents? Show me the evidence of those claims if there is any!

You stated earlier:
PTravel wrote:
And as the missionaries' website made clear, their intent was to have the children adopted by "Christian" families.

However when I asked for a link to the source you claim; you failed to come up with it. I went to the organization's web address listed and the site is in the progress of being built.....I find no information regarding their intent there as you state was "clear". So again please provide me a link to the site you state made their intent clear. Intent here is key to whether a fraud was committed or not since the children were clearly not taken by force.
PTravel wrote:

<Fox News material snipped>

VaHam wrote:
Apparently your learned reading skills missed some portions (now highlighted in red) of the quotes from my source. The first sentence was included merely to help frame the following two. Do you have problems with the AP also?
I have no problems with AP. Provide a link to that and I'll read it. I don't read Fox News.

Well the quote was from the AP and only displayed on the Fox link; the same information is available elsewhere as well. Wow I love how much Fox gets under the skin of some Smile You can tell Fox is providing information they don't want to hear Smile But if you doubt the validity then I did your homework for you. Below are from AP and Reuters. They still provide the same information but perhaps this time you'll recognize that the quotes are from the parents and or Haitian police not the missionaries lawyer as you earlier alleged. I won't put back in the part you missed earlier but it is still up there for others to see.

Source: AP - Haitian lawyer for jailed US missionaries fired
Quote:
"Some told the AP they gave the kids to the group because the missionaries promised to educate them at an orphanage in the Dominican Republic and said they would allow parents to visit."


Source: Reuters
Quote:
"Haitian police said some parents admitted to handing over their children to the missionaries in the belief they would get an education and a better life."


PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
My opinion is just as valid as yours or anyone else's for that matter!
Anyone's informed opinion is as valid as anyone else's. Yours appears to be restricted solely to what you've gleaned from Fox News. So, sorry, I'm not interested in anyone's opinion that derives from that source.

I will just laugh at that comment. Fox gets under the skin of you as well as Obama I see. Smile And it should be clear from the variety of references I have cited your claim of narrow mindedness does not fit me.

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
I feel certain when all the facts come to light, my opinion will be born out, but in the mean time innocent people, who took risks too try and help others, are suffering in some broken down jail.
Whereas I'm basing my opinion, not on feelings, but on news reports, including interviews with parents of the some of the children, from a variety of sources.

Funny you should make a claim about my lack of diversity in resources since the only source you have offered is a statement that NPR reported something (without any means to verify that). I believe thus far I have cited Wikipedia, Reuters, AP, Fox, MSNBC, Kansas City Star and CNN although I have also researched others to include BBC and other foreign news services. In fact I am tired of presenting evidence to prove my points while you simply provide your own opinion as fact.

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
The alleged extortion or bribe money side story associated with the missionary's Haitian lawyer should also prove to be an interesting topic of discussion as well.
What's to discuss? I haven't heard the allegation and, since it appears to originate with Fox News, I don't give it any credit. Has the AP reported it?

Yes they and others have.......did you miss that in your extensive diverse research?

PTravel wrote:
And as the missionaries' website made clear, their intent was to have the children adopted by "Christian" families.

Again do you have a link to that website you claim proves the missionaries intent with regard to adoption of children who had living parents?

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
Could it be possible that in the wake of the disaster their intent changed from that expressed when the filing for non-profit status was initiated? That certainly seems plausible to me.
It also seems plausible to me that they committed fraud to obtain non-profit status. However, that is mere speculation on both our parts and I see little reason to engage in it.
What indication do you have that they "committed fraud to obtain non-profit status"? Because without some indication of fact then your speculation of committing fraud in the filing of non-profit status is completely unfounded and therefore not plausible at all. The missionaries and other sources here in the US have stated they did not intend to offer up children who had parents for adoption. I have seen no evidence to the contrary if you have some then I'd like to hear about it.

Bottom line is, IMHO, all they did wrong was not have the proper paperwork and no evidence to support anything other than that has been presented. There have been indications of bribes and extortion being involved as reported by a number of sources and IMHO in the end this will turn out to be the root cause of these well intentioned people being locked up in some broken down jail.

Source: MSNBC Video
See the video above which mentions corruption and extortion claims.

Source:AP
Quote:
Coq orchestrated "some kind of extortion with government officials" that would have led to the release of nine of the 10 missionaries, Puello charged.

"He had some people inside the court that asked him for money, and he was part of this scheme," Puello said.

Among the missionaries is Topeka firefighter Drew Culberth, 35, a member of Bethel Baptist Church in North Topeka.

Coq denied the requested $60,000 payment amounted to a bribe.

"I have worked for 10 people for four days working all hours," he said. "Look at what hour I'm working now, responding to these calls. I have the right to this money."

On Friday, Coq had told the AP that he was working for no fee.

Puello said Coq initially requested $10,000 but kept asking for bigger and bigger amounts. He said that when Coq reached $60,000, he said he could guarantee it would lead to the Americans' release.

Source:Kansas City Star
Quote:
In fact, said the Rev. James Keller, pastor of Topeka�s Bethel Baptist Church, the group had tried to get the correct paperwork.

In an e-mail from the Idaho church that organized the mission, Keller read that the group tried three times to acquire the paperwork before they were asked to pay $300 a head for the children to cross the border. Culberth�s group refused, Keller said, and before long they were arrested.


Follow the money!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
magicFox
MagicJack Expert


Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 86
Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy ! "Quotes" A lot !

I think the people should be sent back , The kids leave them there, We USA have ALOT more to worry about then kids in Haiti its not even our country.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
PTravel
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see my last lengthier reply either didn't make it or was deleted.

Short version:

You're wrong about burden of proof and elements of libel and slander.

Your cites are to articles that quote the people involved. What a shock! The people involved claim to be innocent and victims of a corrupt system. Needless to say, that is proof of absolutely nothing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PTravel wrote:
I see my last lengthier reply either didn't make it or was deleted.

Short version:

You're wrong about burden of proof and elements of libel and slander.

Thank you for your opinion! I'll file it along with that of others.

PTravel wrote:
Your cites are to articles that quote the people involved. What a shock! The people involved claim to be innocent and victims of a corrupt system. Needless to say, that is proof of absolutely nothing.

And your cites are non-existent! At least I base my opinion on information from a variety of sources Smile

Source: USA Today - Corruption alleged in Haiti kidnap case
Quote:
"Patricia Louis, a third-year law school student in Port-au-Prince, said corruption is so commonplace in Haitian courts that it's nearly assumed when it's a high-profile case or one where the defendant has money.

"The judicial system is like going to a street market � you have to bargain for your sentence," said Louis, 26. "It's really difficult to find who's really innocent and who's guilty."


Source: USA Today - Group says agents want fees before releasing Haiti aid
Quote:
Haiti customs agents told those bringing in the donated goods that if they didn't pay $120 that the aid would be held indefinitely, he said. The demand came despite a sign at the point of entry stating, "No fees for humanitarian aid."


Source: IBSI - IBSI CONCERNED FOR SAFETY OF AMERICAN MISSIONARIES IN HAITI
Quote:
"When the group of 10 US Baptists from Idaho arrived in Haiti, there were no government offices open. When the news media began to report that adoptions were being �fast-tracked�, we found that very strange, because most adoption records were destroyed or lost with the earthquake. If we take into consideration that communications in Haiti were down for several weeks, it is then safe to assume that the group may not have known of any government agency that could have opened for business in order to process the proper documentation for children. IBSI found as many as 20 cases of persons helping Haitian children, who couldn�t find an open government office where to obtain documentation to take the children out of the country until last Monday, February 1, 2010."


Right there is no corruption down there at all. Rolling Eyes

Sometime down the road we can revisit this issue once all the facts are in. And we'll see which of the opposing opinions are born out.

I have a horrible feeling that may only come after the US has built a new court house in Haiti and sent the Haitian government a ton more of money so that a trial can take place there. All over paperwork which was not "purchased"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PTravel
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VaHam wrote:
PTravel wrote:
I see my last lengthier reply either didn't make it or was deleted.

Short version:

You're wrong about burden of proof and elements of libel and slander.

Thank you for your opinion! I'll file it along with that of others.


No, let me be clear. I'm saying it as a fact. I'm also saying that you know nothing about law and your reliance on inaccurate websites should be embarrassing to you, but for complete lack of understanding of the subject.

Now go sue me for libel.

Quote:
PTravel wrote:
Your cites are to articles that quote the people involved. What a shock! The people involved claim to be innocent and victims of a corrupt system. Needless to say, that is proof of absolutely nothing.

And your cites are non-existent! At least I base my opinion on information from a variety of sources Smile
You base your opinion on the word of the people charged with the crime. Your cites are worthless, except as evidence of your own apparent bias.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nobody beats the Whiz!
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 559

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, you're saying that a lawyer's words can't be trusted, because they only say what's necessary to promote their agenda. Can't say I disagree.

Wasn't there a lawyer posting in this thread?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
PTravel wrote:
I see my last lengthier reply either didn't make it or was deleted.

Short version:

You're wrong about burden of proof and elements of libel and slander.

Thank you for your opinion! I'll file it along with that of others.


No, let me be clear. I'm saying it as a fact. I'm also saying that you know nothing about law and your reliance on inaccurate websites should be embarrassing to you, but for complete lack of understanding of the subject.

Now go sue me for libel.


Thank you for the free legal advice. I will take it for what it is worth!

PTravel wrote:
Quote:
PTravel wrote:
Your cites are to articles that quote the people involved. What a shock! The people involved claim to be innocent and victims of a corrupt system. Needless to say, that is proof of absolutely nothing.

And your cites are non-existent! At least I base my opinion on information from a variety of sources Smile
You base your opinion on the word of the people charged with the crime. Your cites are worthless, except as evidence of your own apparent bias.


Can you please show me where any of the cites from the post you just quoted from involved anyone who is related to the missionaries case? Did you simply form your opinion without reading them? I took great care to avoid that just for you! Also none of them are from the evil FOX news. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:33 pm    Post subject: Update Reply with quote

Source: Reuters - Haiti judge to free U.S. missionaries in kidnap case
Quote:
"The order will be to release them," the source, who asked not to be named, told Reuters. The decision has not yet been made public.

"One thing an investigating judge seeks in a criminal investigation is criminal intentions on the part of the people involved and there is nothing that shows that criminal intention on the part of the Americans," the source said.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PTravel
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Update Reply with quote

VaHam wrote:
Source: Reuters - Haiti judge to free U.S. missionaries in kidnap case
Quote:
"The order will be to release them," the source, who asked not to be named, told Reuters. The decision has not yet been made public.

"One thing an investigating judge seeks in a criminal investigation is criminal intentions on the part of the people involved and there is nothing that shows that criminal intention on the part of the Americans," the source said.
At last . . . an objective report. That's fine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nobody beats the Whiz!
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 559

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Update Reply with quote

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
Source: Reuters - Haiti judge to free U.S. missionaries in kidnap case
Quote:
"The order will be to release them," the source, who asked not to be named, told Reuters. The decision has not yet been made public.

"One thing an investigating judge seeks in a criminal investigation is criminal intentions on the part of the people involved and there is nothing that shows that criminal intention on the part of the Americans," the source said.
At last . . . an objective report. That's fine.


Kudos to the subjective sources who turned out to be on the right side of the issue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Update Reply with quote

PTravel wrote:
VaHam wrote:
Source: Reuters - Haiti judge to free U.S. missionaries in kidnap case
Quote:
"The order will be to release them," the source, who asked not to be named, told Reuters. The decision has not yet been made public.

"One thing an investigating judge seeks in a criminal investigation is criminal intentions on the part of the people involved and there is nothing that shows that criminal intention on the part of the Americans," the source said.
At last . . . an objective report. That's fine.


That is about the best concession response I would expect from a lawyer when his accusations are unfounded Smile

It appears that the "unnamed source" above has since been identified as the presiding judge in the matter Bernard Saint-vil. According to the Reuters report above he said he "there is nothing that shows criminal intention" and he is recommending releasing the missionaries. He made that statement on Wednesday Feburary 10, 2010 and our missionaries remain locked up in some stinking jail until at least Monday when terms of their release will be made public.

What I find still disturbing is that the Haitian prime minister made the same false rush to judgment early on and labeled the missionaries "kidnappers" as well.

Now the primeminister says:
Source: Haiti judge recommends freeing US missionaries
Quote:
The Haitian prime minister has warned that the case is a "distraction" from earthquake recovery.


So he makes extreme false accusations and then complains about distractions. Rolling Eyes When people give of themselves and are then treated in such a horrible manner that is travesty of justice. The prime minister should retract his words and be working for a full and swift release of the well intentioned missionaries, if he truly seeks to relieve the distraction. If as the presiding judge has said there is no evidence of bad intentions then you run the risk of loosing help from other good intentioned people when you treat these missionaries so badly.

According to reports he changed the rules and required that all adoption matters and requires his signature personally, which creates a bottleneck in helping those suffering. While I understand the need to protect the children from truly unscrupulous child traffickers; creating roadblocks which lead to even well intentioned missionaries being subjected to harsh treatment is not conducive to helping his people.

In a country where corruption has been reported to be rampant it does make me wonder about possible motives for requiring a personnel signature from such a high ranking official. The motive could be to protect from having lower ranking officials make decisions who may do so based on bribes. It could also mean that knowing bribes are controlling the process; it would certainly be a means to assure that you get your cut from the underlings. Since I would think the prime minister has many issues on his plate in this time of destruction I would be very surprised if he had time to personally investigate each action himself. If he is signing the documents based on investigations performed by underlings anyway why not simply delegate the signature authority to those underlings who are actually doing the investigations?

Now the talk is that the missionaries may only be released on the equivalent of bail and may not even be allowed to return home while while an investigation continues. If the presiding judge has already determined that they had no criminal intent and in this time of chaos there in Haiti is seems unwise to me to make pawns of the American missionaries. LET OUR PEOPLE GO!

It seems obvious they could only be guilty of some paperwork infractions and if that is the case and the Haitian government sees fit to continue to treat people who are with good intentions trying to help them that in such a manner; that all help to them should be held until the matter is finally resolved, just as I said in the OP.

Our government should be demanding that since the presiding judge has already said the was nothing to indicate criminal that the missionaries be released immediately and transported to one of our ships in the harbor for medical treatment.

I remain afraid that certain elements in the Haitian government see this as an opportunity to hold the missionaries hostage in an attempt to have the US pay to rebuild their jails and courthouse facilities.

All this to do about missionaries who have been found to have had good intentions while the government of Haiti does little to round up the thousands of true criminals roaming the streets there following the collapse of their prison makes little sense as they run the risk of loosing support the Haitian people desperately need, unless you add in the motive of trying to get the US to pay for their rebuilding process.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Finally Reply with quote

It is about time the last of these good Samaritans are released!

Source: Remaining 2 American Missionaries to Be Freed From Haiti Jail
Quote:
On Tuesday, Judge Bernard Sainvil said he would release them due to lack of "criminal grounds," Reuters reported.


Yes the link is from FOX who had the story right all along, as it turns out!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VaHam
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 851

PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject: Update on Status of Haiti Missionaries Reply with quote

Source: CNN - Judge drops kidnapping charge against U.S. missionary
Quote:
American missionary Laura Silsby will stand trial in Haiti on a charge of arranging irregular travel, a judge ruled Monday, but more serious charges against her and nine fellow missionaries were dropped.


Months to years in jail for "arranging irregular travel" = nice reward for those who try to help you!

But hey it would be a nice way to get the US to build new court houses and jails for you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mufon
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 296
Location: HIghland Village, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Haiti & Church Missionaries Reply with quote

VaHam wrote:
I mean dees anyone seriously believe that they were doing anything other than trying to help some poor children. If the government of Haiti can't treat folks who are trying to help better than that; then we should give our military orders to evacuate all US citizens put them on our ships there and leave. See how long that stupid government stays in power after we leave because of their actions!


It's a good thing you stated clearly "government of Haiti" to avoid confusion, LOL!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    magicJack and magicJack Plus Support, Reviews, FAQs and Hacks Forum Index -> The Lounge All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB Turbo Extended Edition © 2010, phpBB Group